On Episode 992 of The Core Report, financial journalist Govindraj Ethiraj talks to Jaya Dhindaw, Executive Program Director, Sustainable Cities and Director at WRI India Ross Center as well as Kanan Bahl, Founder at Fingrowth Media.

SHOW NOTES

(00:00) Stories of the Day

(01:16) Why Oil Price Uncertainty Will Continue To Batter Markets

(03:20) The List Of Prominent Companies’ Stock Price Hitting 52-Week Lows Is Growing

(05:16) What’s Driving A Rise In India’s Index Of Industrial Production (IIP)?

(08:05) How And Why India Should Revisit Its Very Definition Of Urbanisation?

(20:07) India’s Insurance Regulator Sends The Industry Scurrying And Stockprices Falling. What’s Next?

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NOTE: This transcript contains the host's monologue and includes interview transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on feedback@thecore.in.

Good morning, it's Tuesday the 29th of September and this is Govindraj Ethiraj broadcasting and streaming weekdays from Mumbai, India's financial capital.

Our top stories and themes…

Why oil price uncertainty will continue to batter markets

What's driving a rise in India's index of industrial production

The list of prominent companies' stock prices hitting 52 week lows is growing

How and why India should revisit its very definition of urbanisation

India's insurance regulator sends the industry scurrying and stock prices falling, what's next?

Markets, Oil, FIIs and 52 Week Lows

10 days ago, investment bank JP Morgan said it did not have a clear baseline view for oil markets for the first time since the start of the US-Israel war on Iran. We simply don't know how to model the endgame, analysts at the bank said. That inability to model any endgame, or rather model an endgame which looks more horrifying with each passing day, is now causing the markets, particularly India, to spiral downwards.

JP Morgan had said that at the beginning of the conflict, it had assumed there were some economic thresholds that the United States administration would not cross, but six months into the conflict, many of those lines have been crossed with no clear exit strategy in view. US President Donald Trump said he rejected an Iranian proposal to reopen the state of Hormuz and end the fighting, while Iran said only diplomacy could resolve its conflict with the United States and Israel. The continuing deadlock as of Monday now has jacked up Brent crude futures to $108 a barrel.

The only good news here is that traffic is starting to pick up in the state of Hormuz. More Qatar Energy-linked liquefied natural gas vessels, for instance, Leydon and in Ballast, have transited the state of Hormuz in the last week despite the conflict, according to a Reuters report. In August, Kepler data showed no visible transits by Qatar-linked LNG vessels.

While some may have got through undetected if they kept their transponders off, but in September, visible transits of LNG tankers have begun to pick up. There are other reports that other oil flows have also increased from other countries apart from Qatar. But all eyes were on crude prices, and with that as a backdrop, Indian stock prices were hit again, falling to near six-month lows, extending a seven-week losing streak.

Apart from Brent crude oil prices, there is continuing weariness over rising bond yields in the United States, which could potentially pull capital back. The indices have fallen nearly 6% over the previous seven weeks, and the Senzex fell 1,124 points to 72,771, and the Nifty 50 was down 360 points to 22,780. In the broader markets, the Nifty Mid Cap 100 and Nifty Small Cap 100 were down 1.6 and 1.8% each.

It is surprising how many prominent stocks and companies are now hitting yearly lows. Seven out of Nifty's 50 stocks hit their respective 52-week lows on Monday. Reliance Industries, Jio Financial Services, Maruti Suzuki, Tata Consumer Products, Tata Motors, Hindustan Unilever, and Wipro in the Nifty 50 were trading at their respective 52-week lows, a Business Standard report said, adding that these stocks have fallen up to 38% so far in calendar year 2026, against a 13% decline in the Nifty 50.

Meanwhile, foreign institutional investors' net investment in the last decade or 10 years is now close to zero, according to a report from Motilal Oswal Financial Services. Outflows of $56 billion from Indian equities in the last two calendar years have offset their cumulative inflows since calendar year 2019, says that report. Of course, even before hitting zero, that net figure has been hovering in the single digits for some time.

Rising bond yields in the United States are also pulling down gold prices, including of gold and silver exchange-traded funds, which declined sharply in Monday's trade thanks to the selling in precious metals. Rising bond yields tend to make gold and silver or metals less attractive. The rupee has fallen to its weakest in more than a week, thanks to oil prices going up, which brought down stock prices and currencies.

Dollar sales from state-run banks, most likely on behalf of the Reserve Bank, held back losses, with the rupee closing down slightly at Rs 95.98, a Reuters report said. And the Reserve Bank of India is expected to increase rates by 25 basis points to 5.5 percent in October, the first increase since 2023, with one more hike possibly in December, a majority of economists polled by Reuters said as inflation rises. Many central banks have begun raising rates, including the Federal Reserve that we spoke of a week ago.

And the Federal Reserve is also set to hike at least one more time in coming months.

What's Driving A Rise In India's Index Of Industrial Production

The markets may be falling, but industrial output is rising. India's industrial output grew at a stronger-than-expected pace of 8 percent in August, government data showed on Monday, thanks to an increase in manufacturing and electricity output, even as mining output contracted.

A small aside here, a recent report from stock brokerage Bernstein said that foreign portfolio investment into India has largely disconnected from macro numbers. So even if macro numbers are strong, for example, GDP or let's say even index of industrial production, don't expect foreign portfolio investors to respond to that. Now, economists polled by Reuters expected industrial output growth at 6.5 percent in August, from a revised 7.4 percent a month earlier.

CarEdge chief economist Rajani Sinha said the strong performance is in line with the momentum seen across other economic indicators like GDP growth, bank credit offtake, exports and automobile sales, highlighting that the economy has held up despite the persistent global uncertainties and elevated energy prices. The continued encouraging performance in consumer durable goods is positive for the consumption scenario. However, the feeble performance of consumer non-durables remains concerning.

A Bank of Baroda research report said manufacturing did very well with growth of 9 percent and was driven by motor vehicles, machinery, both electric and non-electric, electronics, textiles, beverages, rubber and non-metallic products. The push seen in infrastructure is revealed in the sector-wise growth rates and the auto industry has contributed at both entry-level and premium segments. The industries which underperformed like chemicals with negative growth were affected by the energy prices issued due to the war.

Apparel was affected by exports as was pharmaceuticals, said the BoB research report. Elsewhere, India's private fuel companies Reliance Industries and Nyara Energy have begun rationing diesel and gasoline as they walk the line between rising crude prices and flat retail prices, a Bloomberg report said. Prices at Indian pumps haven't changed since May and oil is now, as we said, around $108 a barrel.

Refining companies are free to set prices, technically, but government-owned oil refining and marketing companies usually change prices in consultation with the Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas, and the private sector takes a cue from there. Nyara, which is owned largely by Rosneft Oil, has capped diesel purchases at 200 litres and gasoline at 30 litres at its fuel stations, Bloomberg says, adding that Reliance BP Mobility has also restricted diesel sales at some outlets. Retailers were incurring a loss of about Rs 5 on every litre of gasoline and Rs 23 on diesel as of September 9, as per ratings agency ICRA, but those losses have mostly increased since oil prices have climbed further since then, the Bloomberg report said.

How And Why India Should Revisit Its Very Definition Of Urbanisation

How should India plan and govern an urbanisation process that is already extending far beyond what official systems recognise? The Economic Survey 2526 highlighted, as have many other reports, the rapid outward expansion of India's cities and the growing importance of peri-urban regions. WRI India, a part of WRI Global, a climate-focused research organisation, has released a report equitable, productive, low-carbon and resilient system of cities in India. Recommendations for a national urbanisation policy developed in response to the Economic Advisory Council to the Prime Minister, which addresses this issue.

The report points out that India's urbanisation is much larger than what the census suggests. Newer spatial analysis puts the urban population at 61.6%, with another roughly 27% living in peri-urban areas. So the next urban India is just about metro.

Small towns make up 94% of India's urban settlements and house nearly 40% of its urban population. And yet, policy and funding continue to be disproportionately shaped around larger cities. The report says India should recognise urbanisation beyond existing municipal boundaries, standardise how India defines urban, including peri-urban and transitional areas, and establish clearer criteria for when rapidly urbanising settlements should move from to urban governance.

It also says India should move from city-level planning to regional city-region planning, and statutory regional plans should integrate land-use, housing, transport, infrastructure, and economic development, particularly where growth spills across municipal boundaries. Significantly, it proposes a national urbanisation council and state urbanisation councils alongside stronger city-region institutions and greater devolution of functions, funds, and functionaries to urban local governments. So a key message here is that India needs to stop treating urbanisation as simply the growth of existing cities because much of India's urban expansion is happening in small towns.

And thus, census towns and peri-urban areas, so policy, infrastructure, finance, and governance need to follow the actual geography of urbanisation, not just municipal boundaries. I know that's a lot. I spoke with Jaya Dhindaw, Executive Programme Director, Sustainable Cities WRI India and author of the report.

And I began by asking her to tell us about what the study highlights in this context and what it brings out that perhaps we are not fully aware of or focused on.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

Jaya Dhindaw: Basically a couple of things, right? I think first is in terms of just what is the classification like. When we're talking about urban, when we're talking about rural, what do we really mean?

Because the last census was in 2011 and it's been 16 years since, things have changed vastly on the ground. And there are also realities that we are contending with in terms of the classification itself. For example, you know, the census basically categorises class one cities and conflates very different types of cities.

So you have cities from one lakh population all the way to over a million. And, you know, so Mumbai and something really small of one lakh population, near about one lakh population, like a part and would be clubbed together in a class one category, which means that the rules, the schemes, the programmes that apply to these cities would pretty much be the same. The regulations might end up being the same.

And that basically, you know, hides the reality of, you know, planning, infrastructure, service provisioning capacities, you know, the realities of economic development. For example, smaller, you know, class one cities have lower literacy rates or, you know, higher poverty headcounts or weaker fiscal basis, lower capacities compared to cities, which may be over like a million. So when you conflate these categories, you know, then that becomes a problem.

The other thing is just the rural urban binary. Does it really hold true anymore? Because if you look at census, it was about 33% urban last time round.

And if you look at some other types of measurements, like the Degurba, which is the degrees of urbanisation, the UN categories, it basically says that about, you know, 61% is really urban. And then it also measures peri-urban based on built up footprint. And that's also significant.

Peri-urban is a very important category that we are not paying attention to because the growth is real, it's rapid, and it's poorly measured. It's right outside of the city limits. So if you look at a Bangalore or a Delhi, a lot of your growth is happening in peri-urban areas.

So while the core city is growing at 2.5%, peri-urban has grown at double the rate of that, so 4.15 annually. And if we don't measure it, the characteristics are again, they're all urban, but then, you know, it is losing out on sort of planning and pre-planning, which needs to happen, extending municipal services, and so on and so forth. And the third thing is really about transitional areas.

So, you know, of course, the census has categories called statutory towns, census towns. Statutory towns are those which have been given the statute or the legal mandate, and they have been classified as urban. Census towns have urban-like characteristics, but they're not really classified.

And so the governance gaps are there, they're still governed as villages or rural. So that creates a certain mismatch between what the characteristics of the place are like and how it is being governed. And also the transitional areas are like small towns, and India has a really long tail of urbanisation.

If you just look at numbers, about 96% or 90 plus percent of cities and towns in India are the ones with less than 1 lakh population. And we aren't really paying a lot of attention to that long tail of urbanisation that India has. So these are some of the realities that our report brings out.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. And you've also talked about the fact that the system of cities is old with outdated urban infrastructure and the amount of money that's required just to keep urban infrastructure and municipal services at par. And the figure that you used is about $840 billion.

So let me stick to urban now. So as an outcome of the weak data insights, what is the impact that we are seeing on ground now? Or what's the outcome of this that we're seeing on ground now or today?

Jaya Dhindaw: So I'll give you a case example. So we have something like a Bhiwandi, which is a region near Mumbai, you know, so that spans about 60 villages, it has nine census towns, over 90% of the employment is non-agricultural, right? So all of the characteristics which would meet urban otherwise, but it is still governed as rural, which means that panchayats are making decisions on land use, on waste, water, resource use, air quality, really nobody's making decisions on that, and without the mandate or the technical capacity.

So what you see happening often in these areas is that the urban areas, which, for example, have the function of waste management, a lot of the landfills exist in a lot of these peri-urban or, you know, these non-urban areas. And that's where a lot of the waste from cities goes, right? But these places don't either have the mandate or the technical capacity to deal with that waste.

So these are becoming sort of these really poorly, like, because they're not governed, right, they're becoming these hinterlands, which are becoming these dumps of waste and places where, you know, industries sometimes locate in these zones to avoid sort of environmental regulations. Environmental impact assessments, for example, are neither mandatory or they largely stop at the boundaries of the municipal, and so those aren't carried out over here. So essentially, in effect, you know, we're outsourcing our pollution to these areas, just because they're continuing with the rural books.

And this is an illustration of what's happening in one particular region.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right, so and you're saying that, so Bhiwandi, of course, I live in Mumbai, so Bhiwandi is also the warehouse town now, because all the e-commerce giants have their warehouses there, amongst others. Are you saying that every major city now has the equivalent of Bhiwandi or more outside?

Jaya Dhindaw: Yes, pretty much. And again, there are these, you know, what I call transitional areas, right? So they could be census towns, they could be villages, like really rural, but like contiguous.

They could be small towns, which are transitioning, which are in the shadow of these metropolitan areas. So there are all these other categories, which also kind of, you know, get impacted because what is happening in, say, Mumbai and the consequences in Bhiwandi.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right, and you talked about spatial planning and the need for it in the context of bigger cities. Walk us through what that means, and particularly in a context where, let's say, every city now has development which is seemingly unplanned. Like, for example, in Mumbai, again, the erection of a building is perhaps linked to the availability of land on which there was a much smaller, let's say, dwelling, and the rules have been changed.

And of course, I mean, redevelopment is something that we see all around us, but it doesn't obviously run to a plan that is already in place. It's more ad hoc. Is that something that you look at?

Jaya Dhindaw: No, absolutely. And the case with, planning and essentially spatial planning is this, right? If you look at just the number of, you know, statutory towns and census towns, which have or don't have, you know, master plans, basically, which are the governance frameworks, which are legally binding, and you plan accordingly, right?

You only have about, you know, 52% of statutory towns and about 76% of census towns that don't have master plans. That is a huge number, which means a majority of our urban or urban-like areas, they don't really have master plans governing them, right? The planning frameworks, of course, are outdated.

We are still running with model, you know, town planning laws of the 60s and 70s, which predates sort of the 73rd, 74th constitutional amendments, which, you know, also required evolution. And so all of these areas, when we're talking about peri-urban areas, for example, when we're talking about transitional areas, they remain underplanned, because these areas, they don't have, like I said, the means or the mandate to have these plans or to kind of create these plans, mostly capacities also. You know, these critical services, therefore, are not reaching these places.

So when you look at, for example, I'm in Bangalore, and the peripheries of Bangalore, a large portion of Bangalore, about 176% of new growth in Bangalore over the last about two decades has happened outside the municipal boundaries of Bangalore. And what that means is that the master plan, even if it comes in now, is going to cover a certain jurisdiction, which may overlook that reality. And, you know, what is the development vision for the peri-urban area?

So you have these large areas coming up, developed areas, private developments and enclaves. They are little islands of excellence, if you will, in terms of, you know, the living conditions and, you know, liveability parameters. But just within that enclave, of course, they're not very inclusive.

And the quality of life right outside of it drops drastically, because then you're not connected to the city services, you're not connected to the city governance, your jurisdiction is or your governance is still rural. And, you know, you suffer as a consequence because of this, right? And there's limited land supply, which is really concerning, because it is threatening important ecosystems.

So you have, you know, built up area, and this is what we see year after year, right? Built up area coming on top of previously areas, which were like floodplains. And then every year, you see newer cities where you'd never heard of flash floods or any kind of flooding for that matter.

Suddenly having the situation where it's either flooding, or, you know, there are drought like conditions where there is a water scarcity, because we have impinged on these natural ecosystems, you know, developed on top of them, and therefore the percolation capacity is gone. So land management as a consequence becomes really poor. And then of course, you know, you have urban sprawl, which is happening because and then in the lack of, you know, transport system, you don't have good transport systems, or good public transport systems, really, or integrated public transport systems.

So whatever is being built and planned in the periphery is basically, you know, places where you drive to. So you have your personal vehicles and you drive. And so it is high emissions, it is high carbon, it is unsustainable, you're stuck in traffic gridlocks, there's congestion, and all of the negative consequences that follow.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Jaya, thank you so much for joining me.

Jaya Dhindaw: Thank you, Govind.

What Next For the Insurance Industry?

The Insurance Regulatory and Development Authority of India, or IRDAI, has set the cat amongst the pigeons by proposing a reduction on commissions to distributors of insurance policies. In a consultation paper on distribution reforms released last week, the IRDAI came down heavily on distributors saying the insurance market is characterised by significant information asymmetry with insurers and distributors possessing considerably greater information about product features, costs, and suitability than consumers.

It also said prevailing remuneration structures place greater emphasis on premium procurement rather than suitability or persistency or long-term customer outcomes. Since consumers may have limited ability to independently evaluate complex insurance products, such incentive structures increase the risk of unsuitable sales, subsequent policy lapses or surrenders, and erosion of trust in the insurance system. Remuneration, it says, is growing four to five times faster than the business it is paid on, which has created a buyer-beware market in which consumers themselves are expected to decipher complex financial products.

Distribution costs also vary sharply for similar products. Effective payouts on unit-linked insurance plans, or ULIPs, range from around 5 to 40 percent, while other savings products attract effective commissions of 29 to 60 percent of first-year premium, exceeding 65 percent in some cases. The non-bank finance company Corporate Agency Channel has nearly tripled in the last three years, with effective payouts averaging about 42 percent of new business premium.

IRDAI data also shows that in the previous two years until 2025, premiums generated by the sample, or rather a sample, of life insurance corporate agents rose 28 percent, while distributor remuneration was up 125 percent. For general insurance brokers, premiums rose 37 percent, but commissions were up 173 percent, four to five times faster. Moreover, only 48 percent of life policies persist beyond five years.

So, IRDAI wants to remove hard commission caps and has proposed lower entry and capital requirements, tighter expense limit, the return of commission caps, and consolidation of eight distributor categories into three. The cuts are steep, with effective commissions falling by half in some cases and to zero in others. Not surprisingly, stock prices of banks and non-bank finance companies took a beating last week, while those of online insurance sellers also fell.

I spoke with Kanan Bahl, founder of FinGrowth Media, who has been campaigning on this issue, and I began by asking him what in his view took IRDAI so long to respond to this issue.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

Kanan Bahl: No one knows the answer to why this was happening, like why was this allowed until so far. But yeah, I'm really grateful that the new IRDAI chairman decided finally to act in the interest of the consumer, unlike his predecessors. And it's a welcome move.

Like most of the consultation paper is going to change a lot in the country for good. There are some things which can be improved or which can be relaxed, but it's an 8 on 10 for sure. And much needed one.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Okay, so before I come to why it was done now and not earlier, can you tell us about what the commission structure is like today and who does it impact the most?

Kanan Bahl: So if I have to talk about traditional life insurance policies, up to 80% of expenses of management were allowed to be borne from the premium of the customer, the premium that the customer paid. Now these expenses of management included commission. So what was technically happening was that the big brokers were getting up to 80% commission and through some accounting jugglery, it was shown that other management expenses are not part of the EOM.

So I have had a word with very big brokers in the industry, very senior people in the bank assurance departments, very senior MDs and CEOs of these insurance broking companies. And they used to tell me these are the commissions that they get anywhere between 65 to 80% on the first year premium of traditional products. So it was that high.

Now, if you're talking about the commissions, they have been drastically reduced. There has been a cap for different kinds of insurance product that has been introduced. And any kind of accounting jugglery, the scope of any kind of accounting jugglery has been reduced to a great extent.

I won't say that any loophole does not exist now. It does, but to a great extent, those loopholes have been plucked.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So is there a benchmark in this? For example, let's say, maybe are there other countries which have commissions but are optimal?

Or, you know, in a way, those who distribute the product also have to be compensated. So is there a benchmark or a median commission rate?

Kanan Bahl: I'm not really sure about other countries, but as far as India is concerned, if I have to give my opinion, even if, you know, we bring the benchmarks from outside India as well, we need to understand that we are a very low-income economy, right? And the financial literacy among the masses is abysmally low. There are barely 5 to 8 crore people who are investing in mutual funds today out of a population of 150 crores.

Even if we have to draw parallels, we need to see that in those countries, there are more than 50, 40, 50% of the population is investing in mutual funds and instruments like that. So it's not directly comparable, even if we draw that comparison. Financial literacy levels are abysmally low in India.

The problem with higher commissions, especially in investment plus insurance products, which are typically your endowment plans, ULIPs, etc. The biggest problem over there is that as a high commission, the 60%, 70%, 80% were making those products more suitable for the manufacturer, for the distributor to sell rather than looking at the customer's interest. Now imagine if you're investing 100 bucks in a place and 80% of that is allowed to flow out of the system in the name of commissions and other expenses of management.

What's invested in your name? 20 rupees. Now, even for that 20 rupees to work for you, you have to stay invested for a very long period of time.

And you know, one very dangerous clause in these insurance products is that, especially the traditional ones, if you do not pay the second year premium, you may lose up to 100% of your investment. If you don't pay in the third year, you may lose up to 70% of the money that you've invested. And the distributors, especially the bank insurance channels, it was seen, I also made a documentary, I did extensive research, I found that the bank insurance channels were not telling these naive people, naive senior citizens that if you do not invest in the second year or the third year, potentially you can see a massive wealth reduction.

And on top of that, like I said, people trust their bankers and it is not their fault. If they're not financially educated, our system is like that. It will take at least 25 years for even if we start educating kids in schools today on basics of personal finance, it will take at least 25 years for this country to become financially literate to a great extent.

So it's not the fault of innocent senior citizens who trust their bankers and it was unfortunate.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right, so let me flip the question, Kanan. So you've met a lot of people, including for the documentary that you just talked about. What's the sense on the demand side?

I mean, assuming if there was not this kind of pressure to sell and the commissions which obviously incentivise it, is there a more fundamental problem that people don't buy insurance or don't want to buy insurance or don't see the benefit of it, thanks to which there is so much of supply pressure?

Kanan Bahl: Right, of course. I mean, these high commissions, if at all should be there for term insurance or health insurance, I'll tell you because these are actually very tough products to sell in India, thanks to the low literacy levels in our country. If someone has taken a loan and if they die out of nowhere, their family can be kicked out of their houses if they are unable to pay the housing loan EMI's for a period of say let's 3 to 6 months or 12 months or after they die.

So term insurance is very important for a person to buy. But unfortunately, the literacy levels are so low in India that people don't have a lot of awareness about term insurance. So they end up not buying term insurance because if I give something, I won't get it back.

Right? Similar is the case with health insurance. There are 5 to 6 crore people who have been covered through health insurance policies but this has to expand much more.

So I mean, if we are increasing commissions on these products, it still makes sense because it's a barrier. It's a very big barrier for people to explain, for the distributors to explain this kind of product and its benefits before a person buys thanks to the literacy that has been spread on the internet. And people have taken a lot of term insurances and health insurance in the last 5 to 6 years.

But what about the people who are not on the internet? Who do not have access to these kind of videos or just for some reason, the algorithm doesn't show them such videos. We need to have distributors on ground.

It is very important that we have good insurance agents who help people cover their lives through term insurance and health insurance, including their families because the healthcare cost is also rising up to a great extent.

Govindraj Ethiraj: So as you look ahead, Kanan, how do you see this evolving? This is obviously a draft paper, the industry will push back and I'm sure the IRDAI will also push back because they are the ones who introduced this to start with. Where do you see this landing?

Kanan Bahl: I mean, it's going to be a difficult thing if it goes through but looking at the comments of the finance minister in the past, especially in the last one year, looking at the comments of other parliamentarians who have raised up this issue in the parliament, I am getting a sense that it has somewhat come from the top as well and I really appreciate it. I just hope, fingers crossed, that it doesn't go back to a consultation paper only. I really hope that it sees the light of the day.

Until then, we can't say anything. Let's just hope for the best. I will also write my recommendations to the IRDAI that we need to have higher commissions, if at all, for other products vis-a-vis investment plus insurance products which has rightly been struck down and it's a great thing.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. Kanan, thank you so much for joining me.

Kanan Bahl: Thank you. Thank you so much.