On Episode 871 of The Core Report, financial journalist Govindraj Ethiraj talks to Neil Atkinson, Senior Fellow at The National Center for Energy Analytics as well as Deep Vadodaria, Managing Director at Nila Spaces.

SHOW NOTES

(00:00) Stories of the Day

(01:00) Markets sink as economic uncertainty and West Asia war fears take hold

(02:47) Rupee hits fresh low, as outflows continue

(06:16) What is the actual cost of a barrel of oil, it's not what you see

(22:13) New guidelines for use of AI in advertising are on the anvil

(23:13) Not many people want to move to offshore financial centre GIFT City

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NOTE: This transcript contains the host's monologue and includes interview transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on feedback@thecore.in.

Good morning. It's Wednesday, the 13th of May and this is Govindraj Ethiraj broadcasting and streaming weekdays from Mumbai, India's financial capital.

Our top stories and themes.

The markets sink as economic uncertainty, West Asia war fears take hold once again.

Rupee hits a fresh low as outflows continue.

What is the actual cost of a barrel of oil? It's not what you see.

Gujarat's GIFT city is an ambitious attempt to create an offshore financial centre but not many people want to move there. Could that change?

And new guidelines for the use of advertising AI or rather AI in advertising are on the anvil.

Markets, The War, The Rupee and Gold

The stock market sank again on Tuesday, wiping off something like $115 billion from the market capitalisation of stocks listed on the National Stock Exchange as hopes for a US-Iran deal faded once again and India is now bracing for tough measures which are not clear right now what they could be after Prime Minister Modi asked citizens to lower use of fuel and fertilisers and reduce or cut overseas travel and imports.

Now, it does appear that the uncertainty of what those moves might be and what they are aimed at, for instance, conserving foreign exchange is causing more concern in the markets than the actual moves if and when they come. The core report has consistently argued that prices of petrol and diesel should be raised in order to send the right price signals. After all, there is a supply shock as opposed to speculative price movements and prices are clearly over $100 a barrel and have been, though that is not the actual price and much more on that shortly.

Raising prices are moving on other steps to moderate demand or disincentivize gold purchase, for instance, should thus be taken swiftly. We've had, after all, two whole months, if not more, to think about it. In keeping with the nervousness amongst traders, the Nifty 50 was down 436 points to 23,379 and the Sensex was down 1,456 points to 74,559.

Both indices were down close to 2%, or just a little under 2%, at 1.8 and 1.9 being the Sensex. The broader markets took a bigger hit. The Nifty mid-cap and small-cap indices were down 2.5 and 3.1% each.

On the other hand, stocks like ONGC and Oil India were up under 5% and close to 8% after brokerage CLSA said that the royalty cuts on crude and gas production would benefit them, according to a Reuters report. The rupee also took a fresh hit on Tuesday, hitting a new low of Rs 95.73 per dollar, going past its previous record low of Rs 95.43. Reuters also reported that likely RBI intervention helped limit further losses and the currency ended the trading session at Rs 95.62, which is down 0.3% from its previous close. A note from Kotak Security said that if oil prices continue to rise, the USD-INR rates could go higher, though RBI intervention is expected at elevated levels.

Immediate resistance, they said, is at 96 followed by 96.5 or Rs 96.50. But more broadly, as long as oil prices do not cool off and if tensions escalate further, the rupee could see additional pressure, according to that note. However, they did add that a swift resolution in West Asia could likely reverse this downtrend in the rupee against the dollar. Elsewhere, gold fell from a three-week high hit earlier on Tuesday as both dollar and oil prices rose.

Spot gold was at about $4,698 per ounce on Tuesday morning. India's retail inflation was up to 3.48% in April 2026, thanks to rising food prices, according to data released by the Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation. Inflation rates were higher in rural India at 3.74 compared to 3.16 in urban areas.

Food inflation based on the Consumer Food Price Index was at 4.2% in April. According to a note from Kotak Mahindra Bank's chief economist, the April inflation reading was softer than expectations, though the outlook remains clouded with upside risks and supply-side disruptions from geopolitics and El Nino. The note also said they expect the Reserve Bank to remain on a wait-and-watch mode to assess the pass-through of the risks.

However, the risks for early rate hikes probably from October onwards are building up. India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi will embark on a five-nation tour, including the United Arab Emirates and Europe, from the 15th to the 20th of this month, starting in two days, according to a statement by the Foreign Ministry. Modi is to visit the UAE on the 15th of May and then go on to the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, and Italy.

Meanwhile, are potential investors responding negatively to offers for sales, where existing investors exit in IPOs, as opposed to making way for fresh investments into the company? This was a distinguishing characteristic among several large and small IPOs in recent years, where promoters had used the opportunity to raise funds for themselves and get some exit, if not full exits. Reliance Jio Platforms has reportedly shifted its planned IPO to a pure fundraising exercise, abandoning earlier plans that would have allowed major foreign investors in the company to sell some of their shares, according to a Reuters report. Jio Platforms, which owns the world's second-largest telecom company in terms of number of users after China has large investors like Meta, Alphabet's Google, and Vista Equity Partners, and this IPO has been much talked about.

The earlier proposition was that foreign investors would sell 8% of their individual holdings in the IPO, totalling about 2.5% of the company. Now, this would have allowed new investors to come in, but the plan has been dropped, according to that Reuters report. Reliance now plans to raise fresh funds, totalling 2.5% of the company's size, and reportedly the investors were not keen to sell and wanted to stay invested for the long term.

What is the Real Price Crude Right now?

India will at some stage need to assess how long state-run fuel retailers can take losses from selling fuels, that's petrol and diesel, below market prices, according to Oil Minister Hardeep Puri, who spoke at an industry event on Tuesday. Oil Ministry officials had earlier said that there were no plans to compensate oil marketing companies like IOC, BPCL and HPCL for their losses. The oil marketing companies are incurring losses of about Rs 100 per litre on diesel and Rs 20 per litre on petrol, according to that Oil Ministry official speaking last month.

The fuel retailers, that includes Indian Oil Corporation or IOC, have not raised gasoline and diesel prices or petrol and diesel prices since April 2022. On Tuesday, prices rose by more than 3% as differences once again emerged between the war in West Asia. Brent crude futures were up about $3.3 to $107 a barrel on Tuesday afternoon.

Elsewhere, Saudi Aramco CEO Amin Nasser warned on Monday that disruption to oil exports via the state of Hormuz is threatening to delay the market's return to normal until 2027. According to him, the longer the supply disruptions continue, even for another few more weeks, it's going to take a much longer time for the oil market to rebalance and stabilise, he told analysts on a call to discuss Aramco's first quarter results, which came out on Sunday and beat expectations, not surprisingly, according to a Reuters report. Now, while we track Brent crude prices, do they represent the real price of oil? And what do we know of how demand is looking, even as we try and understand when prices could stabilise? I reached out to Neil Atkinson, Senior Fellow at the National Centre for Energy Analytics and National Energy Think Tank.

Atkinson has worked earlier as head of the Oil Industry and Markets Division at the International Energy Agency, or IEA, and also worked with Petroleos de Venezuela SA much earlier in his career. I began by asking him what he felt was the real price of a barrel of crude right now and what determined it.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

Neil Atkinson: Well, the price of oil that people regularly quote tends to be the Brent price, and it tends to be the front month of the futures curve. That tends to be the oil price that people talk about. And the problem with that, well, there is no problem with it, what that represents is people's view of the value of a barrel of oil in a month's time, or two months' time, or three months' time, and all the way along the curve.

The problem with that is that, in fact, that is not the actual price that is being paid for barrels of oil that are required here and now. And what we have seen since the crisis started at the very end of February is that the price of actual barrels bought and sold in the spot market has at times been over $150 a barrel for some of the Omani crudes, for example, and some other Middle Eastern grades of crude which have managed to avoid the Hormuz. The futures price tends to represent the view of many traders and many other people in the market that the crisis will end relatively soon, and that seems to have been a view that's taken hold since this crisis actually started.

So people think now that the price of Brent is about $108 a barrel, I think this morning, as a futures price, but it's heavily backwardated. In successive months, the price will be lower. That represents a view that the crisis will end.

Meanwhile, in the real world of people having to buy barrels now, they are seeing prices quoted much, much higher. So what is the price of oil? Well, you know, it's the price that you have to pay now, which has been over $150 at times, and it's also the price that people expect to pay in two, three, four, six months time.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. And roughly what would be the split between spot purchases that you refer to and long term contracts, at least in the case of some of the major buyers, which includes countries like India?

Neil Atkinson: Well, India has long term contracts with major suppliers, including, of course, from countries around the Middle East Gulf. And India, obviously, if it's not able to receive supplies from the Middle East in or indeed ties from Russia at the prices which are agreed in the contracts, then, you know, India will have to source alternative barrels where possible. And it will have to pay whatever the going rate is in the market.

India is also, I think, also increased its supplies or its imports from the United States. And India will have to pay the going price for that. So India, as a high importing country, has been very, very badly affected by the disruption to the Gulf supply.

And not just for crude oil, because, of course, as you know better than I, India is a major importer of products such as LPG, which it doesn't produce enough from its own refining network. And India has had to pay very high prices for supplies of LPG. So India has been quite badly affected by the crisis.

And again, as you know better than I, because you're on the ground, Indian government has had to take measures in terms of supporting consumers, but also restricting the use of products in certain sectors at certain times for the rationing. So India has been quite badly hit.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. I'm going to come to demand in a moment. But in terms of supply, obviously now countries like India and others in Southeast Asia or Asia are importing from, let's say, Venezuela, United States.

Now, obviously, that's not the ideal source for crude because of distance, among other things. How is that changing dynamics? And also, does this all mean that there is really no shortage of supply of oil?

Neil Atkinson: Well, it's not just a question of disruption of getting alternative supplies in terms of distance. That's an important point. The main point to make is that countries such as India, but also leading Asian powers such as Japan and Korea and other Asian countries, which see growing markets, those countries are used to processing specific types of crude from the Middle East Gulf region.

Their refiners are configured to process those types of crude, which produce the slate of oil products which they want for their market. So it's fine, in theory, if you lose volumes from the Middle East Gulf to replace those volumes with volumes from the United States. But the crude from the United States is a very different quality.

And it's not necessarily what refiners would really like to use. There's nothing wrong with it, obviously. But refiners in the Asian region are used to large quantities of Middle Eastern barrels.

And that is the problem that they now face.

Govindraj Ethiraj: And, you know, just taking to the United States for a moment. So does all of this benefit US oil producers? And to some extent, could they be a longer term source of guaranteed supply of crude, though more expensive than buying from, let's say, West Asia or Middle East, again, from our perspective?

Neil Atkinson: Well, at this time, to be a US oil producer and a US oil exporter, it's a fine time to be alive. You've got production very high levels, you have record levels of exports from the United States to India, amongst other countries, but to any country, which has seen a shortfall in supply from the Middle East, they are moving up US barrels. But the United States is not the only growing producer outside of the OPEC ranks.

We should also look, in fact, all the way down the Americas. You start with Canada, you go through the US, you go then to Venezuela, which is a slightly special case, but Venezuela will be a growing producer. You have also Guyana, you have Brazil, and you have Argentina.

And outside of the Americas, you've got rising production from Norway. So there is growing supply, which we had expected. I mean, this is not a great surprise.

Growing supply from that list of countries, which I just detailed, which will all be pushing barrels into the market. Those barrels are available to countries such as India, which is a fast-growing economy in terms of its use of all forms of energy, including oil. So India is in a position to find alternative barrels.

But of course, it's competing against other countries, which are also seeing lower supply from the Middle East. In the long term, the United States, I believe, will continue to grow its production, but also so will that extensive list of other countries that I just listed.

Govindraj Ethiraj: I know this theme has been coming up frequently, but let's say it's going to take the Persian Gulf much longer to put oil back into the system, because restarting oil fields or getting refineries going will take time, or particularly oil fields. What does the medium term look like, let's say the next six months or so? And when I say how does it look like, not just in terms of supply, but also potential prices?

Neil Atkinson: Well, as far as restarting supply is concerned, we just don't know. There has been damage to production facilities in nearly all of the countries around the Middle East Gulf. We've seen a lot of refining capacity taken out of circulation.

I think the biggest refinery in Abu Dhabi, which is nearly 900,000 barrels a day of crude throughput capacity, one of the biggest in the world, is essentially offline. When the dust settles and this conflict comes to an end, although quite how you define the dust settling and the conflict ending is an interesting question in itself, we will then have a better idea as to how long it will take for infrastructure to come back online. It's going to vary from country to country.

An issue here is that it's not so much a financial issue for the countries and the companies concerned to find the money to make the repairs. The issue is that each country is going to be competing for materials, the steel, the parts, the valves, the pipes, everything that's needed, and of course, also for the skilled workforce. Yes, once the dust settles, it's likely to be at a minimum several months before full capacity is restored and possibly even longer, particularly in the case, for example, of the liquefied natural gas industry in Qatar, which has been very, very heavily damaged.

Yes, repairs will take time. What does that mean for prices? Well, if we do see an end to the conflict, then our friend, the forward price curve, will almost certainly reflect lower prices because the market will be anticipating that in three, four, five, six months' time, more supply will be available.

You can see the futures price curve shifting downwards, and that would make sense. In the meantime, people will still be scrambling for barrels because normal supplies through the straight-ahead will not be restored, and people who need barrels will still have to pay higher prices for them. But gradually, the market will start to move back to normal.

But at this stage, at the early days of May, mid-May, we cannot know how long it will take for normality to resume.

Govindraj Ethiraj: But you are saying that stepped-up production from countries like Argentina, in the other order, Venezuela, Guyana, Brazil, Argentina, could make a difference in positive contribution to the overall oil stock?

Neil Atkinson: Well, yes. But in 2026, the additional production from the countries that I listed, India, America, plus Norway, that only amounts to about 1.2 million barrels a day, year-on-year growth. This is in a market which is normally about 104 million barrels a day.

So yes, it's welcome. It's a contribution. It's been expected, of course, because we know about the investment plans in those countries.

But it's not by itself enough to offset the continuing loss of supply from the Strait of Hormuz, which is anywhere from 10 to 13 million barrels a day. So it's a contribution. It helps alongside, for example, stock withdrawals from the IEA Coordinated Stock Withdrawal Programme and the drawing down of commercial stocks that we're seeing in many countries around the world.

But by itself, this extra production, it's helpful, but it's not a solution.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So how are you seeing pressure from the demand side? And the context to this question is really that as we went into this war, there was a sense that, including looking at IEA figures and projections, that demand was easing off globally because of China shifting to EVs and so on.

And that, people, or many analysts said, was one reason why oil prices weren't even higher than what they are today. What's your sense now, as we are in the middle of May?

Neil Atkinson: Well, I think we need to qualify about demand here. What is easing off is the pace of demand growth. Demand is continuing to grow worldwide in, let's say, normal times.

And the reason for that is countries such as India and many other countries in Asia, and indeed in Africa, they are growing fast. Their economies are growing fast. Their energy demand is growing fast for all forms of energy.

And we shouldn't forget that people in India, their oil use per capita, the figure that I keep in my head, is about 1.4 barrels per person per year. Now, the OECD average, the rich countries, is about 12 barrels per capita per year. China, after 30 years of very fast economic growth, is using about four barrels per capita per year.

So India, although it's growing fast and other developing countries are growing fast, are still using far less oil per capita than the rich countries. Now, also, they are using more renewables. There's no question of that.

India is adding wind and solar capacity each year, as well as, of course, coal. China is adding wind and solar in addition to coal. China has a very, very tough policy towards increasing the number of EVs in the car fleet, but it's still using a lot of oil.

And my contention is that oil demand will continue to grow globally, certainly for the next 25 years or so. But I accept that the pace of that growth will be slower than we were used to. But I believe it's still about a million barrels a day per year, and that is not small.

If you're going to see growth in demand of that level for a long time to come, you need to have supply. And at the moment, before the Middle East war started, there was a perception, certainly at the beginning of the year, that supply growth from the countries that I listed a moment ago would at least match and probably exceed the pace of oil demand growth, which is why prices in the very early months of the year, before the geopolitical disruption, were, for Brent, roughly in the mid $60 a barrel, give or take.

But the disruption we've seen now is so great that it'll take time to settle down. But I believe that once we can see an end to the crisis and we can see a return to normal supply levels from the Middle East Gulf countries, then we'll get back to the situation we were in of gradually rising demand but plenty of supply. But in the meantime, of course, once this settles, all the stocks that have been drawn down by companies and by countries in response to the Middle East shortfalls, those stocks will have to be replenished.

And countries will do that for very obvious reasons in terms of energy security. So replenishing stocks is a form of demand. So we should see, I think, in the next year or so, very strong demand for crude to go into stocks.

Meanwhile, demand for oil products will continue to grow, not least in developing countries. So demand pressures should be pretty strong. But there is still going to be supply coming into the market.

Whether that matches the demand growth remains to be seen.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Neil, thank you so much for joining me and taking time off.

Neil Atkinson: My pleasure. Thank you very much.

What are the new ASCI Guidelines on AI?

The Advertising Standards Council of India on Tuesday released draft guidelines proposing responsible labelling norms for AI-generated content in advertising as the use of AI in brand campaigns becomes more widespread.

The ASCI, which is a self-regulatory body, in a statement said the draft framework has been aligned with the Information Technology Intermediary Guidelines and Digital Media Ethics Code Amendment Rules 2026, which were amended on the 10th of February, and aims to ensure transparency without causing consumer label fatigue around synthetically generated content. The framework also follows a risk-based approach, focussing on consumer impact rather than regulating the technology itself. The draft guidelines say that AI use in advertising would be considered misleading or harmful only when it creates unfulfillable expectations that could exploit vulnerable consumers, depict unsafe situations, or replicate a real person's likeness without consent.

What is GIFT City?

GIFT City, or the Gujarat International Finance Tech City, is spread over 886 acres and located near Ahmedabad in Gujarat state on the banks of the river Sabarmati. It has been designed to be a global financial hub and has two zones, DTA, that's the domestic tariff area, and the SEZ, which is the Special Economic Zone, and also includes the International Financial Services Centre, or IFSC. Now, the IFSC is the important part today because it's built to operate as a separate financial jurisdiction within India, treated as a non-resident zone under India's Foreign Exchange Management Act.

The IFSC at GIFT City hopes to help global investors and financial services companies access India's economy in a more efficient manner and also facilitate and promote cross-border financial services. It also offers a globally aligned regulatory environment which helps or should help institutions to conduct international banking, insurance, asset management, and capital market activities with more efficiency and flexibility. Now, there are over 120 such financial centres across the world, according to an Ernst & Young report.

At GIFT City, there are more than a thousand registered entities and there are several funds, for example, also located there who invest out and also act as vehicles to bring investments into India. Now, GIFT City is an integrated development on that 886 acres that we spoke of, with a plan to build about 62 million square feet of built-up area, of which about 67% is commercial space, residential 22%, and social space of 11%. Now, here's the important part.

The city has been conceptualised as a walk-to-work city, which therefore includes schools, medical facilities, hotels, social activity centres, and, of course, residential housing. Now, in some ways, this is where the challenge has been from the beginning. When one thinks finance, obviously, one thinks of Mumbai, which is where all the action is, spread across areas like Nariman Point, Lower Parel Worldly, Bandra Kurla Complex, among others.

You may, of course, accuse the core report of some bias, since we are based in Mumbai, but this is what the facts are. Now, the best finance talent, among others, may not easily move to a new place, and they have not been doing so from all accounts, except for a few. While there are many incentives being offered, including, as of a few months ago, alcohol within GIFT City, there is still some way to go.

By the way, the rest of Gujarat has prohibition, which means there is no alcohol available. Could all of this change, and could attractive residential accommodation create a pull for people to move into GIFT City from outside of Gujarat? I spoke with Deep Vadodaria, Managing Director of Neela Spaces, a real estate developer, setting up projects within GIFT City, and I began by asking him how he was seeing the response to their projects.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

Deep Vadodaria: So, a lot of people keep on hearing about GIFT, but I like to say that you have to come here to see it, to actually believe it, because we've almost close to 10 million square feet of construction happening right now, crates everywhere. So the city is going to look completely different in the next two, three years max, or maybe four with some of the projects. But largely what is expected out of it is that elusive vision that India has always had of walk-to-work and a high-performance zone that can compete the CBD of Singapore or the DIFC of Dubai or even the smaller outlets in Mauritius and a lot of these other places.

Because one thing at the base of it is that all the tax incentives are primarily for people who are generating revenues which are in non-INR. So at no point is it competing the mainland in terms of funds coming in. I think as far as the number of companies that have signed up here have exponentially grown since 2020 which is when the IFSC was formed.

Before that it looked like a distant dream of course without a unified regulator. But if you look at the movement post the IFSC's formation, it's been drastically different in terms of number of people coming in. Even though they are somewhat behind in terms of the targets that they've set, we've close to about 20,000 people working out of Kif city right now.

When you say we, you mean Neela Spaces, they're your company or in general? No, no. I'm talking about the city in general right now.

And in that city we are a developer that builds two projects, two residential projects. Both of them focused on sustainability and wellness, compact living spaces with diverse audience, more community spaces and sustainable by design.

Govindraj Ethiraj: And I'm assuming that extends or links to the fact or links from the fact that you want this to be a walk to work kind of space. How is this different from let's say or would this be different from let's say living outside in Ahmedabad or around Gandhinagar which is near Kif city?

Deep Vadodaria: So fundamentally first understand that the residents in Kif are going to enjoy because of what gift is giving in terms of the infrastructure is a district cooling system, all through your unit so you don't need an indoor unit, automated waste collection from the house, house floor straight to the utility via the utility duct goes to the chute, no intermediary. You can have potable water drinking which is a distant dream everywhere in India and continues to be. These are the underlying services that gift itself offers.

Based on that we are building a different stack of what we feel are the requirements of the urban India or the new urban India which is fast changing and that is where in projects like Pranan like the newer one we are trying to optimise air, sleep and water.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right and what's the kind of interest that you're seeing right now for your projects and from whom?

Deep Vadodaria: So on the first project which we will be delivering later this year by Diwali, it's almost nearing completion. We've already sold out more than 80% of the inventory, 20% inventory will be sold once it's ready to move in. On the new project also we have sold more than 30% and still the substantial premium than the market.

The reason is different because we've designed and categorised the project which is dealing with wellness and wellness real estate across the globe is commanding 10 to 15% premium.

Govindraj Ethiraj: And when you say wellness does it mean for senior care or?

Deep Vadodaria: No, so wellness is the overall general wellness bit and the sustainability part. So let me first stack up the sustainability part which is we are consciously sustainable and it's not just that we like to say it, we like to prove it. So when we talk about Prana the new project that we've launched, we are Ed certified, we have well ratings which spans across 21 wellness criterias of the human mind right from mental to sound and water everything included.

And these are not afterthoughts, these are something that you have to mindfully craft in the design aspect of it. Very surprisingly, it's a very positive surprise from 2021 when we started the first project, we've doubled down on sustainability by design. So it's not an afterthought.

Very subtle things like we don't print any documents over and above what the government demands us to, which is because of regulatory reasons, no brochures, we don't have internal combustion engines. So it's just by design that everything needs to be consciously sustainable. And what was positive was there's a very recent Statistica survey that has come out.

It's a very large data set, which surprisingly for the rest of the world says that 50% of Indians are looking at consciously sustainable homes and are willing to pay more for it. And this is far above China, which is 30%, even likes of Japan, which is 25%. And that's what we committed to do in 2021.

And we've just continued to build on. So in terms of the demand perspective, the differentiation is very clear. The buyer completely understands that this project is talking about a completely different dimension than your conventional real estate projects.

So that's helping us.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. And, you know, if you want to look at the entire gift city proposition, and I know the government also has been encouraging and maybe pushing people to go and actually stay there, show that you actually are working on is there for tax reasons as well. I mean, I can see the incentive or the push that's happening, but from your perspective, do you see people coming, living, finding schools for those with children?

I mean, you know, the everything that the soft side and maybe on some of the hard side that really makes a community prosper and prosperous and also, you know, feel buzzy.

Deep Vadodaria: So there are two elements to it, like there is to any of these bigger cities that we've developed in the past. And this is by far one of the largest, because this is 886 acre city. While the demand currently is definitely there, the social infrastructure has been playing a catch up.

We have a lot of people who are moving in here. Personally, I feel that if the child is in middle school or older, then they are going to move a few years later. And it's just the employee which is shuttling between two places because the job demands.

And that's where players like us come in where we are making functional goals. So let me elaborate this point, because I feel that this is a vacuum all across the country. All across the country, the vacuum is I believe that there's no differentiation between person who doesn't need more space and a person who cannot afford more space.

You go out and look for a smaller space anywhere in the country, and you will be given a stripped down version of an affordable house, because that's what it's meant. But I think urban India has changed in the last decade, more than that. And there's a clear dirt of spaces which cross over where size and luxury are dealing.

That's the sort of road that we've been taking there. That's doing well.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Right. So you're saying that in the near term, these apartments and projects are really to serve a functional need of people coming and going. And in the medium to longer term, they become more sort of permanent places of residence because the social infrastructure would have caught up.

Deep Vadodaria: Yeah, a slight change there. Currently, I believe it's going to be a mix of both. But that mix is going to change over the period of time.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Deep, thank you so much for joining me.

Deep Vadodaria: Thank you.