On Episode 847 of The Core Report, financial journalist Govindraj Ethiraj talks to Vipin Malhan, President of the Noida Entrepreneurs Association as well as R. Gopalakrishnan, former executive director of Tata Sons Ltd, about a new book he has co-authored, Chanakya and Sun Tzu: A Business Lens on Trade, Thought and Travel.

SHOW NOTES

(00:00) Stories of the Day

(00:41) A bigger worry for oil: demand destruction

(02:08) Below average monsoons are projected for India

(04:45) Why are workers in Noida protesting?

(12:11) A new lens on India-China relations

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NOTE: This transcript contains the host's monologue and includes interview transcripts by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on feedback@thecore.in.

Good morning, it's Wednesday the 15th of April and this is Govindaj Ethiraj broadcasting and streaming weekdays from Mumbai, India's financial capital.

Our top stories and themes.

It's a bigger worry for oil demand destruction.

Below average monsoons are projected for India.

Why are workers in Noida outside Delhi protesting?

And a new lens on India-China relations.

Markets, West Asia, Oil and The Monsoon

Indian markets were closed on Tuesday, once again being a day where there was a lot of relatively good news.

The key one being that Iran and the United States may speak again in a few days even as a US blockade on Iranian ships has started off the Strait of Hormuz and whose effectiveness is not very clear. Asian markets were up, so were most of the markets in the Western Hemisphere on the same hopes. We of course don't know what the rest of Wednesday will bring as always, so let's see.

But more importantly, oil prices fell on Tuesday. It's not the fact that they fell but the why. The International Energy Agency or IEA has forecast that demand destruction will spread amidst growing supply scarcity and higher average prices because of the conflict in West Asia, according to a CNBC report, which also added that Brent crude futures were down at about $98.30 a barrel.

The conflict, according to the IEA, has already led to the greatest disruption to oil supply in history and the largest ever monthly spike in prices in March. Oil prices also moved on reports on Tuesday that there could be renewed peace talks between the United States and Iran as soon as this week. And the IEA's latest forecasts also indicate that global oil demand could contract by the greatest degree since the COVID-19 pandemic.

Demand contraction was to be expected, says that CNBC report, but also worrying for what might lie ahead as both private consumption and business activity could get further hit as we are also seeing in India. Meanwhile, India is likely to see a below average monsoon rainfall for the first time in three years. This year, that's in 2026, according to a government report on Monday.

The monsoons deliver about 70 percent of the rainfall needed to water farms and replenish aquifers and reservoirs, according to a Reuters sum up. The monsoon is expected to reach about 92 percent of the long period average or LPA this year, according to a Ministry of Earth Sciences spokesperson. The India Meteorological Department or IMD defines normal rainfall as between 96 percent and 104 percent of a 50 year average of 87 centimetres for this four month period.

The director general of the India Meteorological Department said that currently weak La Nina like conditions are transitioning to neutral conditions. But after June, it's very likely that El Nino will develop. The monsoons usually hit Kerala around the first of June, progress upwards and then retreat by the middle of September.

Elsewhere, inflation last week came in for the consumer price index at 3.4 percent for March, up from 3.2 percent. Food inflation was the largest contributor, rising from 3.5 to 3.9 percent, and fuel inflation went from 0.1 to 1.7 percent. Core inflation, however, was unchanged at 3.7 percent for the third month in a row.

Now, despite a full month since the West Asia conflict began, retail inflation has showed relatively low impact of the energy shock, according to a Crisil Ratings report, which pointed out that March had seen Brent crude spot prices jump 45 percent and international natural gas prices jumped almost 70 percent compared to February. While the government did increase domestic LPG cylinder prices by about 60 rupees, the weight on the inflation basket is relatively low. LPG and PNG, that's pipe natural gas prices, have a weight of less than 2 percent on the consumer price index.

And so far, as we all know, prices of petrol and diesel have not been changed and have been kept suppressed, you could say, and they have a weight of about 4.8 percent on the consumer price inflation. So the Crisil Rating note says that retail inflation in March was thus fairly insulated from the energy price shock and core inflation was contained by slower gold and silver inflation. The report also says in coming months, while a low base will perk up food inflation, the adverse impact of heat waves and increased risk from a below normal southwest monsoon could lead to an upside in food inflation.

The report also says the second round impact on core inflation via higher energy trade and transportation cost is also on the cards.

Workers Push For Minimum Wage in Noida

The state of Uttar Pradesh, or UP, has raised workers minimum wages following days of protests in its industrial hubs, becoming the second state to do so in less than a week. The minimum wage for semi-skilled workers in Noida and Ghaziabad, both outside New Delhi, have been hiked from about 12,445 rupees to about 15,059 rupees.

That's for non-skilled. For skilled, it's gone from 13,940 rupees to about 16,668 rupees per month. Now, this is the minimum wage.

And of course, companies may pay more. And we'll come to that in a moment. The chief minister of Uttar Pradesh appealed to industry bodies to ensure that workers receive monthly wages according to rules, regular overtime payments, weekly holiday bonuses, social security rights, and safety and respect for women workers in their workplaces.

Protesters in Noida, which is just outside New Delhi and houses many industrial units, including large ones like Samsung and LG, had pelted stones and torched vehicles on Monday, demanding higher pay after they highlighted rising costs and the challenges of accessing cooking gas. Similar protests in the state of Haryana, which is neighbouring to New Delhi, as well as large auto industry factories too, led to the government increasing minimum wages by 35%. Back in Noida, Reuters report quoted the Gautam Bhutnagar police saying there were about 40,000 workers who were protesting.

The wage hike in UP and Noida will be applicable retrospectively from the 1st of April. I reached out to Vipin Kumar Malhan, president of the Noida Entrepreneurs Association, which represents more than 6,000 small and medium industries, and I began by asking him why the protests had spread in this form.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

Vipin Malhan: ये जो आपने प्रोटेस्ट देखा है, कल जो हमारे याँ हुआ, ये इसकी जो बैकगराउन में अगर हम जाएं, तो हमारे बिल्कुल बगल में एक स्टेट लगता है हर्याना। हर्याना गॉर्मेंट ने अबी कुछ दिन पहले अपने वरकर्स का 35% का इंक्रिमेंट किया, कुछ लोगों की इंडस्ट्री नोईडा में भी है, और उनी सेम लोगों की इंडस्ट्री गुरगाउं में भी है। तो जब वरकर इंटरचेंज होते हैं, तो आपस में बात करते हैं कि मेरी सेलरी तो आज की डेट में 19,000 हो गई, और आपकी सेलरी आज भी 12,000 की करीब हैं, तो यहां से उनके अंदर असंतोज की भावना जाकती हैं, और वो प्रोटेस्ट के उपर धिरे-धिरे सडक के उप आते हैं, स्टार्टिंग होता है यह Garment Export से, धिरे-धिरे यह सुरू हो जाता है, मजरसन कम्पणी में, और जो दूसरी कम्पनीज हैं, चाहिए वो एलेक्ट्रोनिक्स की हैं, चाहिए वो प्लास्टिक की हैं, तो धिरे-धिरे-धिरे यह सुरुवात होते हुँ कल उसका बहुत बड़ा रूप आपने देखा कि उन्होंने नौयडा की सारी सड़के जाम कर दीं नौयडा की तक्रीबर hundred companies उन्होंने तोड़ करी, सीशे तोड़े उसके उसके बाद में जब ये message through social media, through media लखनावु तक पहुसता है, आधरनिये तक पहुसता है, तो वहाँ से फिर एक IDC साब के नितरत में एक कमीटी यापे बैठती है, राज को 9 बाज तक meeting चलती है, 10 बाज तक, उसके बाद में फिर ये final होता है, उन्होंने labor के भी groups बुला रखे थे, हम लोगों को industries को भी बुला रखा था, हमारी भी problem सुनी, उनकी भी problem सुनी, उनकी problem भी अपनी जायज है, कि आज की date में उनकी bread and butter के उपर दिक्कत आ रखी है, उनके cylinders जो मिल रहे हैं, वो 3000 रुपई में मिल रहे हैं, आज उनका जो rent है, वो महंगा हो चुका है, survival उनका मुश्किल है, हम से उन्होंने पूछा, तो हमने भी बताई कि हम पिछले 4-5-6 साल से कितनी दिक्कतों में चल रहे हैं, पहले नोट बंदी आई, फिर आपका covid आया, उसके बाद में हमारे ट्रम्प साहब ने tariff war लगा दिया एक तरीके से, उसके बाद में आज की date में world war की इस्तिति बनी हुई है, उसमें हमारे जो industrial raw material के rate हैं, वो 70-80% बड़ चुके हैं, तो हमारा भी run करना industry ऐसे time में बड़ा मुश्किल हो रहा है, तो हम भी अभी कोई बोज नहीं ले सकते, पर mean while उन लोगों ने आपस में दोनों लोगों की बास सुनने के बाद में एक साशन आदेश निकाला जिसके अंदर 21% salary को increase किया गया है अब जब increase सरकार की दरब से किया गया है, तो हम लोग उसको पिर मानेंगे और कल से हम लोग peacefully अपनी industry खोल रहे हैं

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Ye jo aapne protest dekha hai, kal jo hamare yahan hua, ye iski jo background mein agar hum jaayen, to hamare bilkul bagal mein ek state lagta hai Haryana. Haryana government ne abhi kuch din pehle apne workers ka 35% ka increment kiya. Kuch logon ki industry Noida mein bhi hai, aur unhi same logon ki industry Gurgaon mein bhi hai.

To jab worker interchange hote hain, to aapas mein baat karte hain ki meri salary to aaj ki date mein 19,000 ho gayi, aur aapki salary aaj bhi 12,000 ke kareeb hai. To yahan se unke andar asantosh ki bhavna jaagti hai, aur wo protest ke upar dheere-dheere sadak ke upar aate hain.

Starting hota hai yeh garment export se, dheere-dheere yeh shuru ho jata hai Motherson company mein, aur jo doosri companies hain—chahe wo electronics ki hain, chahe wo plastic ki hain—to dheere-dheere yeh shuruaat hote hue kal uska bahut bada roop aapne dekha ki unhone Noida ki saari sadkein jam kar di.

Noida ki takreeban hundred companies unhone tod di, sheeshe tode. Uske baad mein jab yeh message through social media, through media Lucknow tak pahunchta hai, aadarniya tak pahunchta hai, to wahan se phir ek IDC saab ke netritva mein ek committee yahan baithti hai.

Raat ko 9 baje tak meeting chalti hai, 10 baje tak. Uske baad mein phir yeh final hota hai. Unhone labour ke bhi groups bula rakhe the, hum logon ko industries ko bhi bula rakha tha.

Hamari bhi problem suni, unki bhi problem suni. Unki problem bhi apni jagah jaayaz hai ki aaj ki date mein unki bread and butter ke upar dikkat aa rakhi hai. Unke cylinders jo mil rahe hain wo 3000 rupaye mein mil rahe hain, aaj unka jo rent hai wo mehenga ho chuka hai, survival unka mushkil hai.

Humse unhone poocha, to humne bhi bataya ki hum pichhle 4-5-6 saal se kitni dikkaton mein chal rahe hain. Pehle notebandi aayi, phir Covid aaya, uske baad mein Trump sahab ne tariff war laga diya ek tareeke se. Uske baad mein aaj ki date mein world war ki sthiti bani hui hai.

Usmein hamare jo industrial raw material ke rate hain, wo 70-80% badh chuke hain. To hamara bhi run karna industry aise time mein bada mushkil ho raha hai. To hum bhi abhi koi bojh nahi le sakte.

Par meanwhile un logon ne dono logon ki baat sunne ke baad ek shasan aadesh nikala, jiske andar 21% salary ko increase kiya gaya hai. Ab jab increase sarkar ki taraf se kiya gaya hai, to hum log usko phir maanenge, aur kal se hum log peacefully apni industry khol rahe hain.

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[The protest that you saw yesterday, if we go into the background, we see a state right next to us, Haryana. A few days ago, the Haryana government increased its workers by 35%. Some people's industry is in Noida, and the same people's industry is in Gurgaon.

So when the workers are interchanged, they talk to each other, that my salary has become 19,000 in today's date, and your salary is still close to 12,000. So from here, the feeling of dissatisfaction arises in them. And they slowly come to the streets on the protest.

It starts with garment exports. Slowly, it starts in the Madarsan company. And the other companies, whether they are electronics or plastic, so slowly, slowly, it starts.

Yesterday, you saw a very big form of it. They blocked all the roads in Noida. They broke almost 100 companies in Noida.

They broke their windows. After that, when this message reaches through social media, through media, it reaches Lucknow, it reaches the CM. So from there, a committee sits here under the leadership of an IDC.

The meeting goes on till 9 or 10 at night. After that, it is finalised. They had also called labour groups.

They had also called us, the industries. They heard our problem. They also heard their problem.

Their problem is also justified that in today's date, there is a problem with their bread and butter. Their cylinders are being sold for Rs. 3,000.

Today, their rent has become expensive. Their survival is difficult. When they asked us, we also told them that we have been going through so many problems for the past 4-5-6 years.

First, there was a bankruptcy. Then your COVID came. After that, our Trump put up a tariff war in a way.

After that, in today's date, there is a situation of world war. In that, our industrial raw material rate has increased by 70-80%. So it is very difficult for us to run the industry at this time.

So we can't take any burden right now. But meanwhile, after listening to both the people, they issued an administrative order in which 21% of the salary has been increased. Now when the increase has been made by the government, then we will accept it.

And from tomorrow, we are opening our industry peacefully.]

Govindraj Ethiraj: Okay. The government has set the minimum wage. But does your wage remain at the minimum or above the minimum, including in your own company?

Vipin Malhan: हमारी own company के उपर कई बार तो minimum से भी बहुत उपर होता है उनके उपर तो कोई इसका अफ़र पड़ता नहीं है, पर जो minimum वाले हैं, ये उनके उपर impact है

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Hamari own company ke upar kai baar to minimum se bhi bahut upar hota hai. Unke upar to koi iska asar padta nahi hai, par jo minimum wale hain, yeh unke upar impact hai.

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[Many times, our own companies are above the minimum as well. It doesn't affect them. But the minimum wage has an impact on them]

Govindraj Ethiraj: So what is the difference? Like for example, which industries are the wages lower? And I'm talking about Noida because you talked about Motherson, which is automotive components.

And you also mentioned garment exporters. So what is the range? And which are the companies or industries which are paying above minimum wage and which are close to it?

Vipin Malhan: नहीं, actual में हर industry के अंदर दोनों category होती है कोई भी industry दोनों category की बिना नहीं चल सकती उसमें जो flooerting में फ्रेशेर होते हैं वो अच्छा में होते हैं After some time, एक साल, दो साल माध � चै प्लास्टिक ऎंडश्टि हो चै कॉरोगेशन की आणि का economist के पम नहीं चरता

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Nahi, actual mein har industry ke andar dono category hoti hai. Koi bhi industry dono category ke bina nahi chal sakti. Usmein jo flooring mein freshers hote hain, wo neeche level par hote hain. After some time, ek saal, do saal mein—chahe plastic industry ho, chahe corrugation ki ho—aage badhte hain…

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[No. Actually, there are two categories in every industry. No industry can run without both categories.

In that, the freshers in the starting are in the minimum. After some time, after a year or two, they become technically skilled, then they move. Whether it is your component industry, garment industry, electronics industry, plastic industry, corrugation industry, any kind of industry.

In the starting, you can't work without them.]

Govindraj Ethiraj: So you mentioned that Haryana had increased minimum wage by 35%. What is the gap now between Haryana and UP? That's the first question.

Secondly, what made Haryana increase it? And why did not industry in Noida follow?

Vipin Malhan: क्योंकि नोइडा हाँ जो है वो यूपी गॉर्मेंट के अंडर में है मैं आपको एक बारा थी जो हम अपने आपमें कितने बुरी तरीके से सफरा रहें मैंने आपको सारे पॉइंट्स गिनवाए कि इस टेम इटिस वेरी डिफिकल टू रन आर इंडस्क्री हमारे कंटीनर नहीं जा पा रहे हैं, एकस्पोर्ट नहीं हो पा रहा है लोड़ अप प्रॉबलम वी आर फेसिंग राइट नौओ हम नहीं जाके किसी को रो सकते ना जी, हम नहीं सडक के उपर धरना पर दर्शन कर सकते हमें पता है कि हमारी प्रॉबलम है, हमने ही सौल्ब करना है वेट और वाज की इस्थिती में हमने यहाँ पर अच्छा काम भी किया है यह बुरा फेस चल रहा है, कभी निकल जाएगा, तो आगे भी हम कर लेंगे काम यह डिफरेंस है ना हमारे और लेवर के बीच में

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Kyunki Noida jo hai wo UP government ke under mein hai. Main aapko ek baat batata hoon ki hum apne aap mein kitne bure tareeke se suffer kar rahe hain. Maine aapko saare points ginwaye ki is time it is very difficult to run our industry.

Hamare container nahi ja pa rahe hain, export nahi ho pa raha hai, load up problem we are facing right now. Hum nahi jaake kisi ko rok sakte, na hi sadak ke upar dharna pradarshan kar sakte.

Humein pata hai ki hamari problem hai, humein hi solve karna hai. Wage aur cost ki sthiti mein humne yahan par achha kaam bhi kiya hai. Yeh bura phase chal raha hai, kabhi nikal jayega, to aage bhi hum kar lenge kaam.

Yeh difference hai na hamare aur labour ke beech mein.

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Industry in Noida will not follow Haryana government. Because Noida is under UP government. I told you each and everything that how badly we are suffering in ourselves.

I made you count all the points that this time it is very difficult to run our industry. Our containers are not being able to go, export is not happening. Lot of problems we are facing right now.

We can't go and cry to anyone. We can't protest on the road. We know that it is our problem, we have to solve it.

We are in a state of wait and watch. We have done a good job here. This bad phase is going on, when it will be over, we will do the work further.

This is the difference between us and Labour.

Govindraj Ethiraj: My question, Vipul ji was that was there a reason why Haryana increased the minimum wage?

Vipin Malhan: क्योंकि सेम चीज जो नौएडा में हुई, यह पिछले एक मैने से हर्याना में भी हो रही है हर्याना में रूड बंद करी गई, हर्याना में 144 लगाई गई, पुलिस को लगानी पड़ी तो वहाँ पर भी यह सारी चीजे हुई

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Kyunki same cheez jo Noida mein hui, yeh pichhle ek mahine se Haryana mein bhi ho rahi hai. Haryana mein roads band ki gayi, 144 lagayi gayi, police lagani padi. Vahan par bhi yah sari cheeze hui

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Because the same thing that happened in Noida, it has been happening in Haryana for the past month. Road was closed in Haryana. Police had to instal 144 in Haryana. So all these things happened there too.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Is there anything else that Noida Entrepreneurs Association is doing? Is there anything else to do to improve the facilities of workers?

Vipin Malhan: हम अपनी उत्रपर्देश की सरकार को फॉलो करते हैं जो भी गौर्मेंट हमें अध्यादेस देती है, गैज़ेट पास करती है कि आपने अपने वर्कर्स के लिए ये ये चीजे करनी है, वो हम सारा कुछ करते हैं अल्गो इसके अलाबा जो भी चीजे होती है, वो उनका और हमारा एक personal touch होता है वो चीजे हम कहीं highlight नहीं करते, क्योंकि we are the family member बिदाऊद उनके हमारी industry नहीं चल सकती, हम उनके बिना नहीं है, वो हमारे बिना नहीं है वो हमारे बीच में confidence level एक बिल्ट हो जाता है, तो जैसे जैसे चीजे कभी भी life में कोई problem आती है, तो हम अमिशां उनके पीछे कड़े होते हैं

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Hum apni Uttar Pradesh ki sarkar ko follow karte hain. Jo bhi government humein aadesh deti hai, gazette pass karti hai ki aapne apne workers ke liye yeh yeh cheezein karni hain, wo hum sab karte hain.

Iske alawa jo bhi cheezein hoti hain, wo unka aur hamara ek personal touch hota hai. Wo cheezein hum kahin highlight nahi karte, kyunki we are family members.

Bina unke hamari industry nahi chal sakti, hum unke bina nahi hain, wo hamare bina nahi hain. Hamare beech mein ek confidence level build ho jata hai. To jab bhi life mein koi problem aati hai, to hum hamesha unke peeche khade hote hain.

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Look, we follow the government of Uttar Pradesh. Whichever government gives us instructions, passes gadgets, that you have to do these things for your workers. We do all that.

Although apart from this, whatever happens is their and our personal touch. We don't highlight those things anywhere. Because we are the family members.

Our industry cannot run without them. We are not without them, they are not without us. A confidence level is built between us.

So whenever they have a problem in life, we are always behind them.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Vipul ji, thank you so much for joining me.

Vipin Malhan: Thank you ji.

India and China

Chinese President Xi Jinping lamented a world in disarray using some of his strongest language yet to describe a collapse of the western-led international order as he vowed to play a constructive role in the Middle East, according to a Bloomberg report.

Xi told Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez on Tuesday in Beijing that the international order is crumbling into disarray and that phrase represents not only chaos but also moral decay, according to that Bloomberg report. China has criticised the military action against Iran and warned it risks plunging the Middle East into deeper instability. Chinese Foreign Ministry on Tuesday called the blockade dangerous and irresponsible and vowed to take countermeasures if the U.S. raises tariffs on Chinese exports over the Iran conflict, and Foreign Minister Wang Yi has urged the international community to step up efforts to promote peace talks between Iran and the United States, warning that the current truce remains fragile and must be preserved.

Meanwhile, India and China's own relations are improving steadily after the breakdown in 2020 following border clashes, but how far could they go or should they go and what is the business context for viewing this relationship? I spoke with R. Gopalakrishnan, former Tata Sands director and now author of a new book called Chanakya and Sun Tzu, a business lens on trade, thought, and travel, a book he has co-authored with HR or human resources professional Nirmala Isaac. I asked how, according to him, could we be framing the India-China relationship, including as viewed by trade and business, particularly in these difficult times.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

R Gopalakrishnan: It's always been very, very peaceful. One could argue it's because of the terrain being very difficult. That has not prevented nations from fighting with each other all over the world.

And since this is not a dissertation on history, I won't go into that. For travel, trade, and thought through the northern route via Gandhara and on to the Taklamakan Desert, the Gobi Desert. But the connection of the south is far richer than that of the north.

And many people don't even know this. It is through the Pallavas, it is through the Cholas, it is through the Pandyas. So we thought we'd put the whole thing together and say this is a very long relationship.

Then what is it that has caused difficulties in the last 75 years? Both are victims of colonial inheritances. That's a subject by itself and I'm not going into it.

But had it not been for that colonial inheritance, which is the right line, which is a dividing line, there would be no dispute. And so the question we ask ourselves is we have had the same fortune and misfortune. The fortune being that in 1800, both of us together accounted for 60%, 50% of the world GDP.

And we were the most attractive places for colonial powers to come. They did come. They decimated both of us.

By 1947, both of us were reduced to 5%. Then both of us began a journey upwards through different methods. And there's a chance that, say, in 2050, we would together account again for half of the world GDP.

Question is, would India be better off doing it with China or without China? And I've always felt that when you have very challenging tasks, working with a partner is fruitful. And who better a partner than your neighbor for 2,500 years?

We thought we had a very peaceful concourse. So that's the sort of summary where the history, the sociology, the culture, and all that fits in together. And that's why we wanted to do not more than 170, 180 pages, because it's not a scholarly book anyway.

And to say that, hey, there may be an idea here. And I say this in a positive sense, not a negative sense. If every Agarwal and Chettiar was let loose into saying build India and China relationships, we would have a very different outcome than constantly saying they will not allow more than 5%, 10% or not at all allowed any equity.

Govindraj Ethiraj: Got it. So if I were to come back to the present, we're obviously in a trade deficit now with China. We are importing more from them or much more from them.

And even during that period where we were seemingly not on good terms, and I'm talking about the last 6-7 years, our imports from China increased, particularly as our own demands for electric vehicles and electronics have also risen. What does that tell us about relationship going forward? And do you feel that they can be balanced?

And if so, what is the balance that we can strive for?

R Gopalakrishnan: I'm a believer that trade deficits and surpluses has to be seen sectorally and not isolated. For example, India has a trade surplus with America, which is the beef of Mr. Trump. If I take Indian trade with America and China together, purely a paper exercise, everything is very well balanced.

And that is how OPM began. The British were buying so much tea from China that they had a trade deficit with China. So the only thing they could supply in return was OPM to balance the trade.

So my response to your question is, yes, there is a deficit. India imports a lot more than China. And when that happens in any situation, you tend to look at your imports and see what you can, and you tend to look at your exports and see what you can advance and what other forms of cooperation you can have.

I'll give you an example. Go to Nellore. You'll find a footwear factory called Apache.

You may not have even heard of it. They started making 20,000 pairs of sports shoes and that sort of thing a few years ago. Now they make 20 million for export.

It has nothing to do with high tech and this and that. So I think there are areas, for example, China feels that India is very strong as digital India. China feels that they are very strong as smart China.

How do you convert digital to smart? Can't there be services that can work together? My old companies, old companies, Unilever and Tata, both have a $12 billion business there.

And it's not just Jaguar, Land Rover, cars. It is software and in the case of Unilever, other products. So I think it's a question of picking what is it that makes sense.

Promoting joint ventures. It doesn't have to be iPhones. iPhones get the headlines in big papers, but it can be things as harmless as shoes.

It can also be harmful if it is digital equipment, which can be used to snoop.

Govindraj Ethiraj: So you pick and choose and that is possible. Okay. So I'm going to come back to the thematic part in a moment, but if I were to go granular, we are importing, let's say bulk of it is electronics, but other goods as well from China.

If we want to, let's say build on the collaborative opportunity that there is, we have to do something too. As things are stacked up, we do not appear very competitive, particularly in manufacturing against China. So where would we find those opportunities?

R Gopalakrishnan: This is where the link of policy and actual business has to mesh. We want India to grow faster. There's no argument about it, but we will not make exports contribute to it.

You look at your merchandise exports as a percentage of GDP is static for about 15 years. We keep talking about deals here and there, but you're still stuck at 13, 14, 15% of merchandise export. I want my merchandise exports to go up to 20%.

China is one part of it. There are other countries and other products also. That's the strategic approach that I would like India to take.

When India invests, you know, we keep cribbing that Indian industry, private capital formation is not good enough. But when we say India invest for the world, you get a different outcome, but we don't do that. Policy says that's competitive.

This is a collaborator. And so people get directed by that. After all, people who were enemies the other day have become your friends.

Govindraj Ethiraj: So we are already collaborating to some extent. Not at all. I'm saying there are Chinese companies which have stakes in Indian companies or have a full presence.

I mean, in consumer goods, in automobiles and BYD is here. Fairly large consumer product brands are here. Phones, of course, is entirely, I mean, it's a massive segment.

So there is Chinese presence here. If there is no corresponding India presence in China, is that a failure of policy or something else? I can't blame policy alone.

R Gopalakrishnan: I can't blame business alone. If you let business find its right level, you will find. I gave you the example of digital India and smart India.

Why can't we use, be the AI partners of China? Far ahead of us. But we don't want to admit that they're ahead of us.

We see them as equally long civilization. That's true. But somebody equally long civilization might have moved ahead five times bigger than you.

Electric vehicles, battery technology. We could do a lot with joint ventures in that area. But would we allow it?

You see how difficult it is for Chinese car companies to get into India. I was chairman of Tata Auto Components. I've been to China, you know, once in two, three years in the last 25 years.

We set up one. It was very successful to make plastic components. Now, you won't even think of this.

You're looking at consumer goods because that's what catches your eye. But we made plastic components for the air conditioner, the winding glass. It was so successful, we opened a second one.

And now we have three units there. It may not count in billions of dollars, but there are multiple such examples. Talk to Indian businessmen who go to China and say, what are you seeing in China, which we can learn from?

And you get the answer.