How Marketers Leverage Alternate Media Ecosystems
Insights on how digital video is redefining India's marketing landscape
In Episode 11 of The Media Room, media expert and author Vanita Kohli-Khandekar is joined by Shubha Pai (Head of Sales & Solutions in India at YouTube), Anand Bhaskaran (Head of Marketing at BigBasket) and Aakash Chopra (Commentator and YouTube Content Creator) to unpack the evolving world of digital advertising. The panel dives into the rise of short-form and connected TV content, how creator-driven storytelling is powering brand campaigns, and why shoppability and actionability are now essential to ad performance. Shubha Pai shares insights on changing viewer behavior across devices, Anand Bhaskaran outlines a four-tiered measurement framework for brand success, and Aakash Chopra reflects on the power of storytelling—on and off the field. Tune in for insights on data, discovery, and how digital video is redefining India's marketing landscape.
NOTE: This transcript is done by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].
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TRANSCRIPT
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Hi, good morning. Welcome to the media room.
Anand, Shubha and Aakash, wonderful to have you guys here. And I'm looking forward to a learning session here from, frankly, with the three of you. So first, Anand, you have to tell me what it is that you were looking at.
I mean, how long have you been in the IPL and what is it that you were looking for this time? And how did it all pan out? And then I want Shubha and Aakash to jump in.
Because first, I want to use the IPL example, explain to my listeners what it is that we're talking about, then get into the details.
Anand Bhaskaran: Sure. Thanks, Vanita, for having me on the show. So we've been associated with IPL now for two years.
It started with our partnership with RCB last year. And since then, we've expanded it to also include a bunch of YouTube creators. So for example, this year, we have Arsha Bhogle and Ashwin.
And we have this Aussie podcast called The Great Cricketer as well. So it's a portfolio of different creators associated with cricket and IPL. The reason we thought of this, Vanita, is really a couple of things.
Firstly, we noticed, in fact, it started with our own behaviour. We realised that while we were watching the matches on OTT or TV, we were also spending a lot of time reviewing analysis of matches, especially on YouTube. So it started with our behaviour.
We have a bunch of ardent sports fans on our team. So we realised, hey, we're doing this. And it also turned out that this was backed by larger trends as well.
So if you look at the data, it turns out that not just second screen viewing, but this whole thing of looking at analysis turned out to be a big trend. And hence, we thought, OK, let's try this out. And what we realised as we embarked on this is when we met friends or when we met partners, we realised that, hey, people were telling us, you guys are on RCB.
And we saw you on Great Cricketer. And obviously, we look at a bunch of data in terms of the number of views, et cetera. But I think some of the anecdotal feedback that we got also made us realise that, hey, there's something working here.
And that would be doubled down on it in 2025.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But my point is doubled down in what way?
Were you advertising on IPL or on the discussions around YouTube? And for my listeners also, IPL actually is a property belonging to GeoStar. And GeoHotStar and the whole Viacom family of channels and Star family of channels actually runs that particular cricket event.
But there's a whole lot of concurrent content which plays out on YouTube and which is what marketers like you use. So how, so is that like a parallel thing running to what you were doing on the others too, I won't say linear, but where the main property was playing? What was happening there?
Anand Bhaskaran: Yeah. So in our case, it was not parallel because we, at least over the last couple of years, haven't advertised on the main IPL property at all. So our entire strategy is this around, right?
Aakash Chopra: Yeah.
Anand Bhaskaran: And what I mean by doubling down is, so for instance, last year we were, we just partnered with the men's RCB team and that was pretty much it. This year we partnered with the men's team as well as the women's team. So that's one aspect of doubling down.
The other is this year we are also present with the great cricketers Ashwin and Harsha Bhogle. So that's what we're doing and we're doing it all with surround. So there's nothing on the main live content.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: That's interesting. So that's where Aakash comes in, I think, because he's a creator of a whole lot of that surrounding content. Aakash, you want to jump in here and what it is that brands are bringing?
What is YouTube bringing? And ultimately, if there was no IPL, what would you do? Which is surrounding this whole event.
Aakash Chopra: So, thank you so much for having me here. My throat is a little iffy right now, but I'm in a bad profession with a bad throat, wrong profession rather. So see, when we talk about analysis, when we talk about creating content, I have been creating content for the last seven years and we created this niche where nobody else was actually doing it on an individual basis.
It was more driven by the big media houses. They would do what they do because it was always a branch out thing from the main stuff, whether it's the Crick Buzz or the Crick Info of the world, where they want people to be on the app, but then they'll also put smaller bite-sized content on YouTube because they wanted their presence to be there. And the broadcasters were also there, but not there because they have their preferences for where they want to be and where they want people to be.
And that opened up an opportunity, a window where a creator like me, I was there on the broadcast channels throughout. I've been there for the last 12, 13 years, but I realised that you want to tell our listeners that you were a cricketer, you played test cricket for India. Correct.
So that's nice. But being on the broadcast also, people were always listening to me. I was there for the pre-match, post-match, mid-match, commentary and all of that.
And then you may actually feel that why would actually the same viewer come to me to listen, to actually listen to my views a day after. But we observed a very interesting trend. So we started this and we started this for fun.
There was no real incentive. I started with one of my colleagues, I said, okay, fine, let's do this. In fact, my debut.
So I said, okay, let's start putting a bite-sized content at 7am in the morning. The Madstar finishes the evening before and then you put it out. We did it for a few days.
We did a few days and we tried with different formats because back in the day, YouTube was all about longer format, not really three minute bite-sized pieces. They were not the thing. And 7am was definitely not the slot.
Because people are still sleeping or whatever, they're going to work and school and whatnot. So we started like that. And once we missed it, we didn't post anything.
We were just doing this for fun. So we were doing it like a video every day, 7am, we just put him out there. One day we missed and then the comments were like, where are you?
Why are you not there? What has happened? We missed the deadline and people were there.
I said, oh, wow. Okay. So over a period of time, it became an obligation, actually, that I have to be there.
It started as my own volition that I want to do this. But soon it became a user-driven thing, a viewer-driven thing, who would be there every single day, irrespective of what happened the previous night. So we called it hashtag Akashwani.
It just works well with my name as well. So and then it just kept growing. It grew to a level and I kid you not, while I was playing for India, I was always wearing a helmet and either batting or short leg.
I mean, many people won't even recognise my face. If they were to see me on the cricket field, because that was never visible in a sense. But now after Akashwani and YouTube was the primary platform, of course, I saw banners in the stadium.
And I was like, wow, hashtag Akashwani 30 metre big banner with a big picture. I said, who am I? Like, right.
So this was connection, this was connection that I was connecting to the masses on a one-on-one basis, broadcast, or any other form of content creation, whatever we see on OTTs and wherever else, see, we always talk at people, we don't talk to people. We are always talking amongst each other. And they are the passive audience that is just listening to us thinking, oh, these are godlike people, they know everything.
So let's listen to them because they are the gyani people. But when you but when you do, and that's, that's what I did all my, I mean, my content journey, that I never talked at people, I talked to people, which also meant very real, very raw at times that you're conversing, you're not again, imposing your thoughts on them. You're actually talking to them all the time.
So you break the fourth wall. And that's what I think YouTube and the content universe allowed me to do and the connection has been absolutely outstanding. So just to answer your last question, what would I do if I wasn't there?
Mam, it won't matter. I have done a video a day 365 days a year for the last seven years. So I feel it is a very minuscule part of it.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Around the real event which is happening, right?
Aakash Chopra: And we pivoted also see we pivoted also, it's not necessarily that every time there is not an event. There are days as well. There are dark days where there's no cricket.
And then you figure out a strategy, you figure out different forms of content, which is not a date, which is not timestamped in a sense. And we experimented with a lot of different various ways of creating content. And we figured out a sweet spot, what people like, listen to the feedback, and what generally just follows the matrix.
And I will give you a fair idea of how much it is getting consumed, what is the watch time and all of that. And you will get an idea what your audience wants to see here and all of that. So, we do it, we do it every single day, relentlessly.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: I just want to get YouTube in at this point, Shubha. Hi, Shubha. IPL is like one big, and I first want you to talk about IPL.
It's like one big genre of content where you use all the surroundings. And you know, in the days of Lenny, I mean, when I used to watch TV, also, it used to be, you have all the stats, everything. So all this concurrent stuff, all the parallel stuff, which could drive engagement is obviously moved online, because the internet offers that facility.
And YouTube offers that opportunity. How significant is IPL, or any form of writing for that matter for you as a content genre within, because I know you will probably have silos like sports or food or, you know, comedy, a whole lot of them. And I know, you do those top 20 trends or something every year, I remember I see these lists.
So if you could come at it from your perspective, as head of ad sales, and tell us how big it is as a genre. And what does it mean? And what does this big basket, this whole package mean?
Shubha Pai: Yeah, firstly, thank you so much, Vanita, for having me. It's an absolute pleasure and a privilege. And I know you spoke by saying, you know, I'm a print journalist and all of that, but we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us.
So you know, it's genuinely a privilege to be here and talking to you. My heart is full listening to what Akash said, because every time YouTubers talk and CricTubers talk, the kind of goosebumps that you get and the way they talk about their experience, nothing comes close. Nothing I say will certainly come close.
But a lot of what Anand also mentioned, you know, is so much backed by data. So in IPL 2024, fans actually spent 20% more time on non live content. So there is a clear shift towards on demand viewing and deeper engagement.
And we also see this growing appetite for on demand cricket in our search interest. So it searched 4x in the last four years. And cricket related content on YouTube has seen more than 50 billion views in the last 12 months.
This year, we are waiting for the tournament to sort of end to go back and look at our data. But the initial reads that we saw on both these parameters are already beating last year's average. And, you know, why YouTube?
I firmly believe that YouTube is content's biggest stage in the world. And nothing lends itself to fandom and fan ship as much as cricket does. And therefore, this is like a match made in heaven.
And 88% of cricket fans actually consume like Aakash and I think Anand both were saying they consume sports news, they watch expert analysis, they're watching informal talk shows, fan generated sports content, that's sort of very, very integral to the format and to the platform. And the rise of quick viewers and the growing appetite for cricket content is pretty much a reflection of that. So that's how big it is.
And it's not just cricket, by the way. So there are, you know, there are other emerging sports, and they are fairly democratised, you would think of a cricket fan in a certain way. So out of the 655 million odd sports fans that exist, actually 36% are women, 43% are Gen Z, and nearly 60% are rural, they live in rural areas.
So this diversity, we often don't take into account when you're thinking of an archetype of what a cricket fan is, or what a sports fan is. And there are other emerging categories as well, you have badminton, you have football, it's massive. So football and kabaddi in India have nearly 100 million viewership.
So those are massive emerging, you know, sports bases, we see that play out on the platform. And I think there's one thing that you spoke about, of niches, like, you know, sports is a separate genre, then maybe you have stand up comedy, there is so much crossover that happens, particularly during IPL. There's like, you know, groups of people imagining themselves as being part of, let's say, Mumbai Indians and RCB, and participating in exams, what would that look like?
Or, you know, doing some piece of comedy around that. So it's just creativity hits, I think a new one, everyone just keeps pushing the boundary on YouTube, as far as our creators are concerned. And we see all of this happening in multiple languages.
So some of the partnerships that Anand spoke to you about, like the one that they have with Ashwin, extremely technical content in Tamil resonates massively with that fan base. He also spoke about Danish Sait and I'm an RCB fan. And, you know, the women have done it for us.
And they won the match last year. So I'm super happy. I'm not going to jinx this year's by saying anything.
But the work that they're doing with Danish and you know, they have an entire segment about learning Kannada because here in Karnataka, RCB has an extremely diverse base. It's not just a Kannada speaking base. And therefore, they have a segment on how to learn a language and Virat Kohli is participating and other creators.
So it's just so much of two way interaction, two way communication, community building that you really do believe that YouTube is pretty much the three C's of cricket. So there are conversations that are propelled forward by culture, there are creators who amplify everything. And at the heart of it is a community that just absolutely loves it so much that they will ask Akash, why are you not posting content?
What happened? Are you not okay? Are you feeling okay?
So that's the passion.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Super. But tell me one thing Anand, you when you look at IPL like Shubha said and Akash also said that IPL is just one property. There's a whole lot of other things that happen on YouTube.
When I look at the broader portfolio of what Big Basket does with YouTube, where does IPL and cricket come in? And what are the other sorts of areas that you look at? If I look at cricket, its ability to drive engagement is huge.
Sports by nature are like that. Or comedy by nature would be like that or cooking by nature would be like that as a genre. So when you look at it, and you are a retail giant, how do you look at it in the portfolio of what it is that you seek to do when you go on to a YouTube and you engage with this particular audience?
Anand Bhaskaran: I think what we are trying to do, the larger objective is to have a deep emotional connection with our audiences. And as Aakash said, you know, when people watch YouTube creators, they develop a connection with the creator, you know, it's not necessarily for IPL or for a particular tournament, I think they develop a connection with the creator. Right.
And, and it's a deep emotional connection. And that's what we want to ride on. So for example, with the great cricketer, we've partnered with them for multiple cricket tournaments, not just for IPL.
So that's one way we think about it. The second way we think about it is, we partner with the creators beyond just cricket. So for example, with someone like Adani Seth, we have partnerships which span through the year.
Right. So that's second. Third, on sports, I mean, cricket is the biggest sport by a margin in India.
And therefore, we want to have that connection with cricket. But in addition, we also have partnerships with participative sports, which are things like running. So for example, one of the things that is not on YouTube, but this is offline, we have a partnership with the Tata Ultra Marathon.
And we have partnerships with other events as well. Right. And that rides on the trend that, you know, participative sports are really increasing in terms of demand in the country.
So that's, that's the third thing. The fourth is, we've also partnered on YouTube with the, I mean, there's a show called Chef It Up, which we partnered with, which is in the cooking genre. So we try to do that as well.
So essentially, the idea is to have a deep emotional connection, and to partner with a bunch of creators, and to ride on trends. And we try to do that throughout the year.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Now, if I flip this and ask you, at what stage in the, in a year, or at what point in the year, what are your brand objectives? Or what are your marketing objectives, when you're going looking at YouTube in your, in the product in your ecosystem? Is a marketing plan a brief, which is made?
I mean, I don't have to tell you the whole process. But where in your whole evolution stage, in all the variables that go into play, when you choose a particular genre, and a particular vehicle, does, I mean, how does Big Basket look at this whole thing? I mean, for example, IPL, sure, it drives engagement, but is there some particular brand that you were looking at?
Is this a particular service you were looking at? Or it was just, you know, keep people reminded, keep them reminded, keep that awareness thing going? What was it?
Anand Bhaskaran: Yeah, so a couple of things, Vanita. Firstly, in terms of business objectives, Bangalore is where we started. And that has been a focus city for us for several years.
And that's why we thought we'd partner with RCB as well as Bangalore based creators. Right. And that really was the essence of the RCB partnership.
So if you look at what we've done, even, for example, the films that we've done with RCB, it has a very strong Bangalore connection. Right. So that is, that's one strategic objective.
The second strategic objective, Vanita is, you know, now, while we started with online grocery, now it's, you know, morphed into quick commerce. And one of the things we are trying to do is to establish a connection with 10 minute delivery, right. So when we work with any of the creators, great cricketers or Harsha, we try to ensure that there's a strong connection with 10 minute delivery as a message.
And there are, each creator has their own ways of bringing that out. So for example, if you look at the great cricketers, they have quirky ways of bringing out 10 minute deliveries. Ashwin, Harsha have a slightly different approach.
So 10 minute delivery is one of the key strategic messages that you want to get across with these partnerships.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: So you use it at whatever point for whatever, you know, Shubha, you mentioned something about the distribution of 36%. But from whatever I can see, the internet is largely, I mean, at least up to three fourths, it seems to be male dominated. And is that true for cricket as well?
So there is male participation. I mean, it's not to say, but I was looking at some stats earlier for some other story. And this came out that this is in line with the fact that the internet is male dominated in India.
Actually, And there is not a good option, you know, if YouTube consumption and smart TV increases. Yes.
Shubha Pai: So cricket and fandom can be across a spectrum. So I can be a fan of the IPL. I'm a casual cricket follower.
Otherwise, I will not know what happens in an England series or a test series. So I'm not a hardcore cricket fan. I could be drawn into the IPL because there is so much else that happens in the IPL.
There is a lot of it's more entertainment than you know, hardcore sports and all of that. So there is room firstly for that entire spectrum to exist. And I definitely don't want to have this bias because I have a lot of female colleagues who are ardent cricket fans who are sports women themselves.
And therefore, I don't want to make a, you know, a very generic statement. But if you are a fan who is more of a casual fan like me, there is room for you to sort of exist and come alive really alive during an IPL and sort of be a little bit more dormant the rest of the time. There are other passion points I have on YouTube, which I'm extremely actively engaged in.
In fact, on the show that Anand spoke about, I almost unmuted myself and said, Hey, you forgot about Sanjodh Keer. I know Sanjodh Keer because I follow his recipes. And I love the way he connects with the audience.
And you know, so therefore, that is my passion point and I connect with him. So there is an opportunity I am catching a big basket message when it is there. The point that you make about the big screen is extremely pertinent.
So according to a very, very recent research, a data point as of December last year, we anyone who's a logged in user on average is actually watching 40 million hours of content, the consolidated set of people who are logged in viewers in India. And this is on a daily basis. So there is a massive jump in on YouTube.
So this is YouTube consumption on the big screen, like you pointed out, which makes very, you know, friends and family collective viewing and there is long form content getting watched on average longer content getting watched. Even as Anand was answering his question about therefore, what is the marketing strategy, I think the good thing about a platform like YouTube is there is enough AI in the ads, you know, product offering, which, as long as you know who you're reaching out to, who is your core audience? Is it something they like doing?
And you're on your content creator, you know, creative formats, long form, you have all of that, the system can decide how to optimize for your marketing objectives. So you brought up the point about, you know, is it about awareness? Do you want to stay always on?
Is there a specific objective? So let's say Anand's objective is to maintain a certain amount of salience throughout the year. And he uses his team's IPL as a moment to sort of pulse it up, dial it really up.
So for that dialling up, there will be solutions he will probably he can, of course, he's shot a wonderful ad with Danish set and the team, he could put that up on the masthead. So the first thing I see when I log in, if I'm a big basket user, and he's reaching out to me, I will see that ad on the big screen, and it's full glory, he will create snippets, which are short form. So when I'm, you know, just wanting to pass time, I'm not a very leaned in viewer behaviour, I'm swiping through, I see Danish Sait, I see RCB, I care about both things, I will actually watch that ad, maybe he has a message in there saying, we're running a special discount available only for this week.
So I'll click on it, and I will do something. But that whole thing is the AI magic, which powers the ads, it's across different screen types. I no longer have to think with this play on CTV, I can dial that up short, but the system takes care of it. If Vanita is a big basket customer, and she's watching CTV, likely she will be shown the big basket ad as much as if Anand is, you know, he's just getting ready for his day, and he's swiping through shots, and he's a customer, he will see the ad.
So I think that stitching together pieces has become a lot more seamless, and there are offerings there. Yes.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Aakash, in your, in the people who engage with you, especially on cricket, and you do you see any, I'm just a little fascinated by this female, not because I'm a woman, I'm sorry, it's just, I'm just wondering about the diversity of the audience. Do you see any patterns there in terms of not just male, female, also, is it younger, older, what, what kind of things? I mean, anything specific that you see in people who follow you and with you?
Aakash Chopra: It's an interesting one, actually. So in fact, we have created a cohort. So we actually look after, we've got a big team.
Now we look after even Anjum Chopra's YouTube channel, who's an India cricketer, of course. So her core audience is going to be a lot more female-centric. And she does a lot of women's cricket content, from interviews to covering the WPL and whatever the Indian cricket team is doing as well.
And that's picking up, that's picking up. But from my POV, I have tried, I have tried. And that's what that team is just experimenting with the format and the content that we create.
I have realised that my core audience is the male audience. It happens to be the male audience, which is from 13-14 years till 35 will be my sweet spot. And there is a bit more on either side.
But it's generally male audience. And that is why I mean, my focus is generally on the male cricket that I tend to cover as well. Maybe it's the connection that I don't get to cover so much of women's cricket.
So maybe there is a disconnect there as well.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But is it a flip for Anjum? Does she get more female audiences and less male audiences?
Aakash Chopra: I'd like to assume so I can confirm. I don't have the real data points yet. I mean, I've not delved deeper.
But I'm assuming because I think on YouTube, and in the content space, all of us tend to connect with the creator. Even so, for example, I watch a lot of Vantage. Vantage is the show that's hosted by Palki Sharma.
It is a geopolitics show. This is my first post. But the fact is, I don't care about the first post personally, I just care about that one show.
And I am hooked on it. That is my interest. I love geopolitics.
So I want to see that one hour show or listen to it if I can't watch. So I think it's all connected where when you're connecting to that one show one individual, which is a very personalized experience, where I want him or her in this form and shape and whatever and I would want to consume that sort of content. So that's been my experience.
But for Anjum, I can get back to you again.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: You know, there's an old adage in television. Anand probably has heard that people are not loyal to television channels. They're loyal to shows.
They're loyal to their personalities. And the internet has released that whole I mean, I call YouTube and for a decade now called YouTube the auditions, auditions theatre of the world. It is an audition theatre, you come and do anything, you make a roti there or you make a chicken curry there or you show something on cricket there.
But, you know, one thing he mentioned and the reason also why I wanted to bring up any is and this is something I'm finding in a lot of interviews I'm doing with people recently. I just spoke to someone on movie marketing. YouTube and the internet, it's very targeted, you know, and it's very specific.
And like you said, the AI, Shubha, you said the AI helps you so it catches Anand because it knows so it will catch me when I'm Aakash. But does that specificity, does that sharp pinpointing, does it remove all serendipity from the advertising or the consumer experience? I'll explain what I'm trying to say.
For example, in movie marketing, when you are too specific, you're reaching out only to the people who are likely to watch Mission Impossible. But there might have been a 20-30% spillover from other people who were exposed to the messages around Mission Impossible, but who now don't know that it's releasing. I think Mission Impossible is a bad film to use because it is like such a mass film.
So let's say a Twelfth Fail or Manjumal Boys or whatever, you know. But it is so specific that you lose any spillover audience you might have, whether it's for a movie or a magazine or a bunch of groceries. The fact is, you could be reaching other audiences.
But because there's no wastage, there's no spillage, there is no extra audience. So that's serendipity. So you know, it's all fine to say 50% of all advertising is waste.
But out of that 50% some gold comes out, the market keeps expanding. I don't know what Anand feels about that. I want Anand and you to.
Anand Bhaskaran: Maybe I can take that. Vanita, I think, I completely agree that reach really matters. So we are always wary about being too overly specific.
So I think reach does matter. I think that's just the reality. I think to Shubha's point, I think, for example, when you're running a brand campaign, what you will end up doing is, as an advertiser, you want to reach.
So you'll say that, hey, I want this reach and this, you aim for a particular frequency. Where you let the algorithm do its job is, what you do is you feed in a bunch of video formats, right? I mean, 9 by 16 and, and, you know, a bunch of video formats.
And where you let the algorithm do its job is to figure out, okay, what form factor to show which viewer at what time, right? So you don't necessarily restrict the audience. Where you use the algorithm is to figure out what kind of an asset to show what viewer at what time.
So that's the way I would think about it. I very much agree that reach matters a lot. You don't want to be overly specific and overly narrow.
And in fact, there's one, you know, there's this marketing, marketing guru called Rory Sutherland. And one of the things he says is, the waste is the portion of marketing that actually does its job. And I think I completely agree with that.
Absolutely.
Shubha Pai: I loved your question. And if I may, actually, there are two parts to it. So one is, of course, the ads part.
And I'm so glad that Anand clarified that, when you approach something with, you know, a goal of wider reach, you actually, you go wide, and then the system does what it has to do. However, there's a beauty in organic content, as well. So I would have never thought of myself being a fan of black comedy, like African American standup comedy, I would have never thought I would relate so much to Dave Chappelle's comedy, or watch the entire show, then, you know, when it comes on Netflix, etc.
For me, that happened, because as I was doing my, you know, content watching, I got recommended snippets. And those snippets stayed with me so much that I went later. And so I was almost recruited into a category to your point, where I was not a part of earlier.
And this happened purely organically. In fact, this is one of the things we tell our media partners, especially like if you're launching a new show on Netflix, firstly, put enough organic content out there. And even in your you know, advertising parts, please be expansive, because you could actually end up recruiting somebody who never had the intent to go there.
And, you know, so to your point, it broadens the content if you do your organic plus ads really well.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But the algo is showing you really what it thinks is related content.
Shubha Pai: And some and some entertainment content. You're saying something?
Anand Bhaskaran: Yeah, no, maybe I'll take a shot at this. And maybe I'll take off from what we do in our marketing. And then maybe give an example of what I think you might be doing, right?
So, Vanita, in our communications to our existing customers, right? So we have three buckets. So we call it relevancy, adjacency and discovery, right?
Relevancy is, you know, products that you've already bought, similar to content that you've already consumed. adjacency is, you know, it's very similar to what you've seen, but maybe a little different. And discovery is completely, you know, serendipity led.
And what we've discovered is that you need to have a decent portion of discovery. So maybe 50-60% of your advertising or your communications has to be about discovery. And what I would assume the YouTube algorithm also does is obviously it's trying to feed you content that you're interested in.
But it will also have a certain portion that it's going to figure out, hey, you might be interested in this. And there's probably a portion of discovery attached as well. And I think that, you know, what we notice in our feeds also has that concept.
Like, let's say a portion of discovery is what I would imagine.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But I thought I don't correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not the IT person here or the software engineer. But the algo is trained to keep serving up again and again and again, things that you like, things that you watch or things that you think, how do you get out of that trap as a marketer?
Or even as someone who's because you also want your marketers to get a wider reach. So how do you get out of that trap? For example, Aakash is doing videos because he thinks a larger proportion of his, but maybe if he did change this thing a little and started doing more content around women also, he might just get, I don't know, Aakash, I'm just hypothesising here.
Aakash Chopra: So from a creator point of view, I experiment with different forms of content to an extent and it's not just restricted to women, by the way. So historical pieces, for example, so yeah. So for historical pieces, for example, reliving the 1983 World Cup victory.
Now this is the anniversary and you relive that. And then you sit and watch how our consumers actually react to it. If you do it like that, and of course you have to do it enough times to really collate the sizable data, which is dependable.
And then you can plan your strategy. So you do enough pieces to understand whether it is sticking or it is completely missing. So for my audience, I realised that they are unfortunately not interested in the historical pieces either.
If I were to recreate whatever, I mean, they don't buy it as much. So I did enough. Then I moved away from the women's thing as well.
So I actually, for one of the events, I had Jhulan Goswami as my guest because I thought she's an authority on women's cricket and I would not be, and I don't want to be one either if I can get Jhulan or Anjum again. So I did the entire tournament, committed to it, but then the response wasn't as good. So then again, I pivoted away.
So I still do it, but I keep a very small proportion of the full content that I create because in the end, I'm not creating content for myself. I am very clear that if I want to just create for myself, I'll talk to the mirror and that's about it. Why do I need to distribute it?
If I'm putting it out there, people must consume it. And it will be, I mean, naive of me to think that they do not matter. I create for them.
So they matter the most. So I have realised this is the way to do it. But then there are other ways as well, where if a match analysis doesn't work, I would still do history.
So we do an animated kind of history piece. We call it his story or her story. And there I even put a non-cricket story.
And it does fly over a period of time because it is an inspirational story. It's a motivational story and it's a wonderful story, a heartwarming story. So that is not gender specific.
So I pretty much know actually this kind of content is going to stick. This is something that is going to get me views immediately in a short duration, something that is going to actually grow over a period of time. So those are the things that I think one has to be really intelligent about and aware, because if you're not aware, you end up creating content that nobody's actually interested in.
And a lot of us actually get too obsessed with what we create. So we love it so much. We think it's the best, but it is not.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But yeah, there's a counter to some of the best filmmakers in the world making a film that they want to make and it connects. So it works both ways, honestly speaking. I mean, somebody like me, I have to write something that people will read or I have to produce a show which people will hear.
Shubha, tell me one thing, you mentioned ad formats and in the brief that Anujaa sent me also, are there some patterns, are there some interesting trends that you're seeing on how marketers are, what formats are working, in what sort of audience cohorts, etc. Because YouTube is becoming one of the biggest, I mean, CTV is becoming one of your biggest surfaces and successes. And globally, I think your CEO also mentioned some that, you know, we dominate the living room too now.
So on ad formats, what kind of trends are we seeing and are there trends specific? So say a big basket, it works better, you know, across these devices or these ad formats. Is there something there that you can share?
Shubha Pai: So I think there are three trends. One is this whole growth of both the short form and as well as the big screen. So the two, in fact, there is also a Venn diagram of people watching shots on the big screen, on the CTV, which is an interesting trend.
So one is that. And how do you, like you said, how do you, how do I create a format that, you know, grabs attention both on the big screen as well as on the small vertical scrollable screen. So that is one definite trend.
So a lot of creative best practices around that. And even from a user, you know, consumer preference standpoint, we see them being more learned when they're watching the big, when they're watching content on the big screen. It's a very linear TV-like behaviour.
So firstly, I'm watching longer form content and I'm more tolerant of slightly longer ads. So I'm okay watching a non-skip ad, which is 15 seconds, 20 seconds, sometimes even 30 seconds, because this is my behaviour. This is on the big screen.
On the small screen, it's more snappy. And a lot of what Anand and, you know, Akash both spoke about, which is, can I make it more discovery led? Can I make it more actionable?
I see something, I like it. It's an impulse. I click on, like, it's a big basket ad.
I click on it. He's shown, he led with a discount. I clicked on it.
I went and I added something to my cart and I bought the product. So it's more, you know, here and now, what can I get somebody to do? And can I make some discovery happen?
So this is one trend. The second one is, increasingly we will see shoppability being a feature or actionability, performance orientation becoming very mainstream and very important to all advertisers. This is a particularly post-pandemic trend.
And on YouTube, we are making a lot of announcements. And if you caught Google Marketing Live, there were some specific announcements made in this direction. So you'll hear more of it as we localise the Google Marketing Live event in India as well.
And which means that even when I'm watching something on the big screen, can I scan a QR code and take action on it? So we see a huge adoption of that from our advertisers, because this is what linear TV could not do. I could not drive that kind of actionability.
So this is the second big trend. The third trend that we are seeing is creators, which is how can I get creators to convey a certain message, whether it is to drive awareness and discovery or at the lower funnel saying, hey, go here, buy this now from awareness consideration to down to purchase, leveraging creator-made assets to sort of complement your brand-made assets is a definite shift that we are seeing, even from the largest advertisers.
So if you hear even Unilever globally wants creators to carry their message forward, there will be a brand said and there will be others say. So that is a big focus area for all brands, big, small, and everyone is experimenting what works for me, what size, what length, what type of creators, what type of messaging, does it hit close to my brand value, et cetera, et cetera. But these three are like very, very here and present shifts in ads.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Has that, I mean, have CPMs improved? I don't know if you're in a position to talk about CPMs, but has it meant better CPMs? And I know I'm asking in front of an advertiser, but I just wanted to know where, what's the, she says it's so low.
Anand Bhaskaran: Actually, it's very hard to tell why CPMs move up or down because there are just too many factors. I mean, of course there are changes in ad formats and things like that, but there's also advertiser intensity. It's very hard to tell why, it's very hard to attribute one or two reasons why CPMs move either up or down.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Okay. You know, Anand, just like I asked Shubha about formats, anything you see in how well your ads perform across genres within YouTube, and if you can, if you use YouTube, but you use some other media also, I mean, how do you make those comparisons? What are the metrics?
Because there's YouTube, but there's also, I don't know if you use any other traditional media, whether it's print, TV, radio, whatever, or it is just YouTube and digital and meta and that kind of stuff. So two questions here. One is efficacy within YouTube on different genres and efficacy across media compared to.
Anand Bhaskaran: Yeah. So maybe I'll have to answer this a bit elaborately if it is okay, right? In terms of how we measure our brand activities, right?
If that's okay. So we look at it at four levels, Vanita. One is input, right?
And input is things like, so we have tools that measure adherence to best practices of YouTube and other platforms, right? So we use one called creative X. So we check, okay, out of 100 creatives that we have submitted, what percentage adheres to creators and to a broad extent.
So that is something like that. Second, we want to achieve a certain reach and frequency mix, right? It's not merely one thing you've realised it's, it's not merely about views.
We want to have a certain mix of reach and frequency. So whether we adhere to that, right? So things like that form part of the input set of metrics.
Second is campaign metrics. And in campaign, we look at things like brand lift, right? And brand lift studies can be set up on YouTube and other platforms as well.
And the way we use brand lift is not whether to, whether a particular campaign has achieved brand lift or not, but for a given campaign, how does brand lift compare to historical benchmarks, right? So that's the way we look at campaign level metrics. The third level is mind metrics, right?
Top of mind and, you know, consideration. And in our case, 10 minute delivery associations and so on and so forth. The fourth level is business metrics, which are things like, I mean, of course it's sales, new customer acquisition, but in our case, since we have an app, we also look at the brand mentions or brand searches on play store.
So we look at it at all these four levels and for a given campaign, right? We typically look at the input metrics and what we see on brand lift relative benchmarks. And you can do that across platforms and so on.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Yeah. My question is for these four metrics, therefore, how do various genres work for you? Do you find that cricket and IPL is more enumerative in that sense from your brand objective perspective or is comedy more enumerative?
What work, is there some pattern there?
Anand Bhaskaran: Yeah. So I would, so we look at patterns, we have two years of data to go by and it does appear that the IPL campaigns have been, you know, a few of the most effective campaigns that we've ever run.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Fantastic. Yeah.
Anand Bhaskaran: Again, you know, I mean, some of this I'm a little reluctant to, you know, over, let's say, infer because it's just been two years, but so it looks like the lift is fairly large compared to all of the other campaigns that we run.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Super. Super. This has been good.
I, you know, I'm done with my questions, but I just want to ask Aakash one thing that, you know, you're a cricketer, so you chose to use cricket as a, but if you had to attempt some other genre, what would you do? And if you had to create concurrent content, what would it be?
Aakash Chopra: That's an interesting one. Never thought of it, but I mean, storytelling, I mean, that's very close to my heart. In fact, the whole world is all about stories, even financial marketing stories.
So it's, we are storytellers, we are in that business. So that's what I like. I've got two little kids as well.
So they've also, they write stories, I tell them stories and it's a wonderful thing. So storytelling is where I would want to be.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: That's a nice note to end on. Thank you so much, Anand, Shubha, Aakash. I enjoyed this conversation.
I don't know about you guys, but it was fun.
Shubha Pai: Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Aakash Chopra: Thank you. Thank you so much.
