Why the Future of Cinema Needs Writers First with Sidharth Jain
Insights on script development in Indian Cinema
In Episode 10 of The Media Room, media expert and author Vanita Kohli-Khandekar is joined by Sidharth Jain, Founder and Chief Storyteller at THE STORY INK. They talk about the urgent need to nurture original voices, the pitfalls of data-driven decision-making, and why India needs more patrons and fewer proposals. Jain breaks down the challenges of being a writer in today's film economy, the importance of instinct over analytics, and why real change will only come when creators—not corporates—are in the driver’s seat. Tune in for insights and aspirations in writing, directing, or backing the next great Indian film.
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NOTE: This transcript is done by a machine. Human eyes have gone through the script but there might still be errors in some of the text, so please refer to the audio in case you need to clarify any part. If you want to get in touch regarding any feedback, you can drop us a message on [email protected].
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TRANSCRIPT
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar (Host): The movie business is in a tough place. Habits are broken and so has supply. Nobody is sure what will work.
You would have thought in such a situation, there would be a doubling down of the effort put into developing stories and scripts. But after the studio system broke up in the 40s, very little time, effort and money has gone into the process of development from studios. Except perhaps for an NFDC or AdLabs, Manmohan Shetty, there has been very little work done in this area.
In the 80s, Shetty emerged as a patron of parallel cinema. He financed Adi Satya, Hippie Purae. In fact, he kick-started that whole parallel cinema movement in the 80s.
In fact, one of the things that he kick-started or he invested in was a small company that would go on to develop scripts and you know pay writers on roll to develop stories. IROC Media, the company he invested in was set up by Siddharth Jain who's been working as a producer for over 20 years. He founded the Story Inc in 2018.
Story Inc now claims to be India's largest book to screen adaptation company. It represents over 250 authors and controls screen rights of more than 500 books. In 2021, Siddharth founded a development and production company called House of Talkies for films and series.
In January 23, in fact, its first show, Trial by Fire, which is about the theatre tragedy in Delhi, in Udhar, was released on Netflix. So, I spoke to Siddharth about the journey of a book to a screen because that's a journey most of us don't manage to capture or listen to and the challenges with the developmental end of the film chain. Let us hear what he has to say.
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Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Hi Siddharth. Welcome to the media room.
Sidharth Jain: Good morning, Vanita. It's a pleasure to be here.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Siddharth, I'm going to, you know, because Story Inc does so many different things, I just want you to first take my listeners through what exactly Story does. Where does it stand in this whole media entertainment ecosystem and then we'll dive into each one of those things.
Sidharth Jain: Yeah. So, it started in 2018 as a story company. The goal was simple.
Let's solve the story problem for the industry as a whole. Started with the first low-hanging fruit, which are ready-made stories in the form of, you know, published books. Focused on that for two years till COVID hit us.
And those two years, I think, were, I've seen as the most active years for development in the business in the last 20 years. Because every producer, every director, everyone thought that OTT will come and change the world in a way that it will give large volumes of work to everybody. So, everybody wanted to take a shot, right?
So, even if it was a first-time producer, faraway guy, somebody sitting in America, an Indian, everybody wanted to see how they can get a slice of that pie. Because OTT was supposed to be this thing that will salvage, you know, those stories that could never go to a singular theatrical film or a TV show. It came as that, you know, that third alternative.
So, we sold a lot of books to producers. I would say almost 200 books were optioned in those two years, right? But then when COVID hit, two strange things happened at the same time, right?
Because one was OTT jumped. So, suddenly the business case made sense. But because it was COVID and like resources shrunk for producers, which is money, shoots, releases, theatrical window collapsing, it kind of, producers, you know, kind of didn't have resources to develop those books into scripts and then package them with talent and take them to the financers.
So, that was a big, I mean, you know, simultaneously two things are happening. Greatest demand, least supply. So, people who had ready-made content leapfrogged and the ones who were in that trying development got completely killed.
And it also weakened the industry because, you know, traditionally last 50-60 years, the theatrical businesses where the producers somehow had upside, so they would lose money in a project, make money in another project. So, the fires of production and content were really theatrical was fuelling it. It wasn't the TV business, you know.
So, because of that, kind of I had to pivot story. I realised that producers, now what will they do with the book? They don't have the money to pay a writer and take a gamble of an option for a year or two.
So, I pivoted story into, okay, let's start developing and let's help producers even develop the books into scripts, bibles, pirate episodes and try and help them go a step closer to the studio. Did that for two years and then I realised that producers don't have the risk appetite anymore till the theatrical window comes back in large numbers. Also, OTT exhausted a lot of money in buying ready-made films at amazingly high prices.
So, they stopped commissioning development in large numbers. It became a little more tempered and by the time we were in 23, life started becoming more practical and selling numbers back in focus and the business kind of became, okay, now let's be realistic about results. You know, that euphoria that we go through in a strange way.
And so, as story, if I would say, now we've like pivoted a lot from books to helping develop material and scripts to representing screenwriters now and producing. And when I say producing, storying, the strategy that I have is to co-produce. So, we are like, you know, how you have in the finance business, like the fund of funds, right?
So, we are producers but we'll produce everything through co-productions. So, that's the model that I have now at Storying wherein we will develop a large slate, find 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 production houses that we can partner with as co-productions and then they in turn go do the packaging of talent, go to studios, get them funded and also do the production.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: You know, you and this is something I think I've told you also and whenever I've interviewed you, I've said this, that you do something very critical at the developmental end of the value chain in this business.
Sidharth Jain: Yeah.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: How do you finance that development? Because this is something even large production houses don't do. How do you, except for NFDC or maybe a couple of other outputs, I don't know anybody who works at the developmental end.
How do you finance this and how do you sustain yourself?
Sidharth Jain: Yes. So, that's a great question because that question is also asked at home. What are you doing?
Every time you make money, where does the money go? So, I think, you know, like I would say there are, it's a combination in response to this. One is I think my passion towards Stories is my biggest strength and weakness.
It's my strength because everybody, big or small, does knock at my door to check, which I'm very grateful for because 20 years consistently, one thing that I've done is that I've never lost my kind of passion to find stories and storytellers and somehow get them in front of the right people. I do that every day and that is one part of the answer. You know, it's really my passion that drives me, which makes me think less about commerce in the phases that I feel I have to not think about money, but I have to see what will help the industry as a whole and I have gone through cycles.
So, when I started 2018 Story Inc, for two, three years, we were doing really well. So, all the money that we made, I ploughed back during the COVID years. I feel now, I mean, I genuinely believe this is the greatest year for inflexion in the Hindi industry, right?
And so, I've been investing largely personal money and over the years, I must say that a lot of production houses that have been around with me, have done development deals with me, so where they give me the development funding and I must say, you know, the first one to really write a slate development check in 2018 when it started was, you know, Abhishek Reggie and, you know, Manali Khanna of ND Model. They were, you know, they saw that, you know, they come from a certain TV business.
Here is me with a different experience and they wanted to bet on that and the result of that was trial by fire. So, you know, people who bet in development, right, are the only people who can actually really control the narrative of the businesses. I mean, Abhishek Reggie left ND Model, so then it kind of then merged with Banerjee Asia, but I think there are studios like those and there are studio executives who head these kind of studios in different intervals.
Like, I found these kind of people all through my life. I found Mr. Manmohan Shetty 15 years ago and he just wrote a check, he said, do what you want to do, right? So, it's people like these who are little more visionary, they like to take bets, are the ones who always come to my rescue and that has always, you know, I think sustained me in so many ways.
In the last two years, I would say Netflix, Amazon, I've been pretty supportive of development. Now, I've got a great development deal with Harvan Bhavija, whose company Bhavija Studios went IPO last year. So, every two years, I've met people who believe that no matter which cycle the industry goes up and down, the development process needs to be sustained.
And they have their own agendas, right? So, somebody wants to launch a fund, somebody wants to scale up production and they realise the bottleneck is what? What will you make and who will make?
Who will make is being handled really well by the talent agencies, but what will you make still has to be, I think, solved for the industry to achieve a certain scale and quality simultaneously. And that's the solution that I'm always trying to fill and provide for.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: You know, this was a question I had for later, but because you've touched upon this, development versus commissioning. From what I can see, a lot of the stuff is commissioned. Ultimately, you don't or the production house doesn't own the IP.
So, what is the journey of that IP? Has that changed in India or we used to still see, I mean, 80-90% used to be commissioning. So, where are we there?
Sidharth Jain: I think a lot of good IP has been sacrificed at the altars of the OTTs in the last three-four years, only for the industry to become wiser and now cognisant of the fact that the business model of OTT commissioning does not work for premium producers like us. I think that has hit home hard because a lot of shows that went into development of films with the big OTTs in the last three years have either been shelved or they have been stopped midway and the IP gets stuck because they paid some monies for it. I think also because at that time, there was no glimmer of hope for the theatrical films or the films in the last three years.
What has changed last year, the shift, is that hope has come back. Practically, outside capital has started coming in. I mean, the deal that Dharma did is an example of outside money solution looking at doing films.
So, I'm hopeful that this year, if 20 people will try to raise money, 5 will succeed and that, I think, effect will kind of help look at making films where we can hold IP or share IP with the financer, unlike OTT.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But are you seeing a larger proportion of own IP? I mean, Indermal does, let's say, for example, Big Boss or TVF does Panchayat. Now, who's owning?
And even Trial by Fire, the show that you produced, who's owning the IP? I don't see rising incidence of IP owned by producers.
Sidharth Jain: So, the answer is clear, right? If it's episodic content, which is run by a TV network or OTT, they will own the IP. I think if producers have to build their own IP, you have to go back to the old film model and revive that through compelling content at the right price.
I think that is the only solution that we have. And finally, this year after COVID, the first year that I feel, we all have a great shot at it. For example, I already have a slate of films that are going to be casting and packaging in the next few months.
And these are all films where we have a chance to go on the IP with the financer. Fantastic. But I think it's more possible in films than in small screen content.
100%. I think Ardhan applauds and excels maybe. Nobody's really managed to crack those deals.
Sameer Nair is the man who's kind of really holding the fort.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Yeah, Sameer has done a great job of keeping that developmental cycle going.
Sidharth Jain: Absolutely.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Okay. So, you know, you do, you mentor screenwriters, you do consulting, you do book to screen or story to screen. What is the biggest portion of your business?
What is the one biggest and what is the most exciting portion of your business? And how is each one of them panning out? Just some sense of this.
And you know, also one of the things which I as somebody who loves this business, how many stories do you get in a day or a year? I'd be very curious about that.
Sidharth Jain: So I'll answer the first part first. In the first three years, I was focussing on servicing and consulting. 2018 till about 2020.
Then, you know, after COVID, I said, okay, now let's pivot. So then a large part of our business was doing self development and development with partners. So a lot of resources were coming from there, focus was there and the team building was like that.
Six months ago, we have now restructured to look at producing and co-producing. Now, all the projects that we put in development in the last three years and four years, that has turned into a ripe slate for the for picking and different different large production houses or studios now can will pick projects from those slates. For the next three years, my focus is largely scaling up the development by 10x and doing co-productions.
So scaling up the producing bit but through co-productions, not doing own productions. So for example, I would go and tie up with the Baveja studio, when I will take three projects, they will come on board as co-producers and now they will fund it, package it and produce it and we are partners and your co-producers. So my bandwidth remains on development.
So I'm hyper scaling, you know, development in a very big way, raising capital for that this year, and solving that problem for I would say the top 10-15 production houses, wherein the moment they raise their thousands of crores as funding, they will need 20 projects a year, maybe I can supply five projects to each studio or each production house.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: This is I mean, I can't tell you how heartening it is to hear this. But tell me one thing. So, you know, suppose you have, like I saw your website, you have so many books and you have so many consulting services.
But if someone comes and says, you know, I want this particular story, but I don't want you to produce it, I want to produce it. Are you doing still doing that? Yeah, absolutely.
Sidharth Jain: So there are two parts of our IP, the IP that we represent. We are not part of it as a producer at all. It's completely free for the producer to do what they want to do.
It's only the IP that we invest in and develop. That also, I mean, there have been times where I've, I mean, I'm open to parting with it. So I'll tell you something as a philosophy for me personally and the company.
We only, I only want to be part of projects where we genuinely add value and the partner wants us. You know, I have a no follow up policy in general. We never follow up, like I've sold 250 booklets without pitching a single book.
I never pitch. I don't cold call. I don't offer anything for sale.
If somebody is keen to work with us to find a story or a project has to come to us with intent and then we look at it. So my model is very, very flexible because I've not raised any corporate capital. So I can, I can keep pivoting because I think the industry is also very, it's like a zoo.
You know, this business from Bollywood. There are different animals, different cages. You have to feed them different food and it's just bizarre.
Every day is a new day. Right. So I am also one of the monkeys and chimpanzees and we're surrounded by each other and we've learned to work around it.
So, you know, all the animals in the zoo, there can be no single setup for the zoo. Only the zoo master can have. So the platforms are, they have their rules like, you know, like construction, like builders.
If you want to buy a flat, this is the agreement. But for me, as one of the animals in the zoo, we like to live in harmony. So we are flexible.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But this is strange. You're telling me you don't pitch at all. How do you sell a project?
So somebody has to go to your website. Somebody has to know story.
Sidharth Jain: Yeah. Yeah. So, okay.
I'll also tell you, oh, you know, like also we don't really go after finding stories, which we did in the first two, three years of stories find us, whether it's a trial by fire or anything. Right. I think if anybody who is a slightly more diligent individual will do the research, they'll realise they'll find me on the internet.
They reach out to us because then it's clear that their intent and they are serious and they've done some homework. Because otherwise we get, we get about maybe 100 or 200, between 100 to 100 submissions a month. I can't physically or send a team of 10 people to look at each one of them.
Right. So we have our own, you know, system and database of filtering what's good, what's bad. But it's truly I feel, you know, the idea is that the industry is very small.
If you, I mean, from your report, you know, there are only 10 production houses of scale, maybe another midsize 10 production houses. So the whole game is between these 40, 50 players between the top production houses, directors and studios in the right. So these 40, 50 people, they know what I do.
I know what they do. I spent 20 years in the business now. So I think it's a very need based call.
If I want to work with a certain director, I'll reach out to that person. If somebody is sitting in an office and thinking, you know, is there a good book or story that you can find for this talent, they'll call me, they'll send us an email. People who discover us are the new people who are new to the industry.
Right. For that, you know, social media is a great tool. For me, Instagram is like my best shop, I would say, because we get so many enquiries from all kinds of people.
And you know, we check every message that comes to us. Every email, every message is checked by somebody. So, you know, I think accessibility is also a problem.
But I think the industry players know how to find say, I'm in a B2B business. And the people who truly have the money and the resources know who to call for what. If I have a heart problem, I will go to a cardiologist.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Besides Trial by Fire, I mean, you said you are producing something with Bhaveja Productions.
Sidharth Jain: Yeah.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Can you give us a sense of what we are looking at from story of what story are you looking at?
Sidharth Jain: So between the, you know, I can't take names because it's not public, but I'll tell you between the top two streamers, we've got about three series in different stages of development of writing. So those will move at its own pace. But like I said, you know, I've greatly pivoted to films in the last six months.
So with Bhaveja, we've got three films that are due for announcement later this year. Simultaneously, after that, we are in the process of inking another co-production deals for another three films this year. So hopefully of these six, seven films, two will move towards the end of the year and shoot, maybe two, three next year.
But you know how it is, right? It's very unpredictable. But the point is, my learning over the last two decades is build a large enough slate because different people will like different things.
So I've always focused on that. And I've also seen that sometimes stories will linger for six years, five years, then they'll suddenly become relevant. And then they get picked up.
So we've seen that historically, right? So I feel stories don't get old. So I invest largely a lot of my money in creating original IP.
So there's no like time, like time, you know, like a timer on the option of the rights. So you know, that has always paid us more dividends. When you know, we partner with writers, screenwriters and authors who stand through the test of time.
Because this business is like this, it is very cyclical in terms of money and content and genres and format.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Yeah, everything has seen that. And I will come to that. You said something and it is part of my questions.
What is your filter when you look at a story, a book, a screenplay, whatever is pitched to you? What is your filter? My filter first is to say 10 people and you.
So how do you ensure that the algorithm slots you? So your personal algorithm, does that slot you and then you tend to look at the same kind of stories? How do you sort of correct for that?
Sidharth Jain: I'll tell you. So over the years, I've mastered the art of being very objective and not subjective when it comes to content. You know, it's taken great years of practise of doing wrong things and right things to become neutral.
So as storing, my first thing is, we are objective towards story. What is my main parameter? My main parameter is, can this story be packaged with the right talent and can this be marketed to any audiences?
Because if something cannot be sold, it's no point trying to push that. So my first filter is really, you know, can this be sold? Like who could be a potential actor, director, budget, what kind of a producer, what kind of studio will look at it and why?
Is it marketable? Can it be a, what kind of a poster will it become? What could be a potential positioning of the trailer?
That's the first parameter that I look at is the salability of the product. Because anybody who comes storying, they want me to sell their story. That's the first thing, right?
Whether I'm the buyer or it's Mr. X, it doesn't matter. I have to ensure that we filter stories that can be sold. So if I have a shop and I have a window, what will I put in the show window?
Saleable product. So that's the first parameter. The second filter largely after that is obviously the content.
Like, you know, once you think it is saleable, how ready is the content to get developed the fastest way? And that is where the large, I would say, the challenge lies. Because, you know, screenwriting is such a uniquely different format of telling a story because on the screen, every second nanosecond, something has to happen.
The audience is watching. There's not a lot of gap. So you have to constantly, there's movement, there's action, there's dialogue, there's action, there's dialogue.
That's screen. Now, when we write a book or a story that's written as a 10-pager or it's a comic book, you know, comic book is still easier. But largely, if you look at any other written material, it has to be rewritten by rethinking the basic principles of storytelling for screen.
And that is the second parameter. Can this be adapted or taken to screen in the right way? Does it have all those tropes of character development, character arcs?
Is it too expensive? Locations, dialogues, plot, structures, a plot that will have enough twists and turns to sustain either 8 episodes or 90 minutes. So then it comes to that.
But I think, largely, most stories, you know, that come to us, I would say, only 10% are sellable. 90%, unfortunately, are not sellable for the screen in general. And my personal filter is the last filter.
If I like something, then I'll say, you know, like I told Vanitha, you know, we want to do something with your book, you know. So then the personal filter comes. But that comes at the end.
I never look at myself as the first guy to look at a story. Only if I think I'm the right guy for it, and do have the right passion, enthusiasm to sit on that story for years to make it happen. Only then I actually dive into it.
So, I mean, it's a very small number for me to dive into something.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: So you're saying you get 100 to 200 submissions a month?
Sidharth Jain: Yeah. Correct.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: How long does development take once you've applied your filter, and a story has been chosen, or a book has been, how long does development take normally?
Sidharth Jain: So my, now my internal assessment is that if you want to do something of high quality, or, and high quality is very subjective, right? I'm saying something good, which means a lot of rewrites, and you might go through different different writers in the loop. A good film script will take anything between, I would say, 12 to 15 months.
A good series will take anything between 12 to 18 months, subject to two things. One is finding the right writer as early in the process. And number two, which is the most important thing is money should flow.
The biggest challenge that I feel, you know, the industry faces is that the big companies don't give monies in development the way they should. So they are the real, like, reason why a lot of projects get shelved. It's not really the writers.
You know, they have such milestone basis payments, which I feel is very unfair to the writers, and the creators, who will keep doing rewriting, rewriting for months, months, months, then they lose steam, because if you're not getting paid, you know, in the right way for your time, you're getting only paid on milestones, then you know, the whole system is kind of designed to favour the corporate that has deep pockets, and is not in favour of the creator who doesn't have deep pockets.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: So it is like, you know, the first draft, you'll be paid so much in second draft and approved draft, or is it like a monthly payment?
Sidharth Jain: If it were monthly, that's great. So my full time team, like, between 22 and 24, I had like 15 writers on a monthly salary. The results are amazing.
But studios don't do monthly, they do milestone in approval. So I may write draft three, seven times, over six months, and I only get paid on approval.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: So which is… You know, this was the way studios were running in the 40s, if you remember.
Sidharth Jain: I started iRock in 2008 with Mr. Manmohan Shetty's money. First company to pay writers on a monthly basis.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Yes, I remember that.
Sidharth Jain: So monthly basis is the right way, but it's also economically, it can be draining. So it's just, that's the problem. It's a challenge.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: That is why the job you perform is very critical. Because you sustain these writers while they're going through the drafts. That's why I said it's a developmental end.
Nobody invests. It's a very difficult game. You know, one of the things, there's so much, this whole thing of supply and demand.
It seems very weird, but we have lots of stories, we have a lot of material. We don't have enough people to shape it, perhaps, or we don't have enough money to shape it. But this supply demand imbalance has remained in storytelling in India.
Is there any way of, I mean, I know that capital is a, I mean, it is one of my questions. You and I just discussed it last week at the Avia conference also. A, first of all, how do you bring some sense of balance between supply?
Because demand has now got consolidated. You've got five or six large companies, studios, whatever you call them. And even on the theatrical side, you have three large ones and the rest are all, you know, some have 30 screens, some have 10 screens.
You have a PVR, Inox, and then you have a Cinepolis, Mirage, whatever, you know. How do you, in that market, how the hell do you sustain? I mean, how do you deal with this demand supply imbalance?
The fact is, you know, user-generated, we are talking about professionally generated, but there's a whole user-generated ecosystem, which is on Meta and which is on other short video apps or wherever, YouTube, which is inundating the market and sucking away the ad dollars. So, that is also the competition for the professionally generated. It's competition for time and revenues both.
So, there's a deluge, but the deluge is not coming from us. The deluge is coming from the other side. So, I don't know if I'm communicating this right, but the deluge and the supply-demand imbalance.
Sidharth Jain: Yeah. So, I feel the way things are going, my personal opinion, is that, you know, premium content will end up in two silos. I think the studio demand, right, with the big six studios, OTT, TV, etc., that is going to get sharper and I think that those opportunities will probably reduce as we go along because we've kind of come back to an older era wherein they have resources, but they're still very dictatorial in terms of the business model and the kind of creators they will attract. So, I think, you know, I'm already seeing signs where on OTT and TV-driven platforms, the bigger, you know, creators saying, you know, we don't want to do this. In the last three months, every time I've spoken about a series to a good creator, they say, you know, how about we do a film, right? So, I think that, so, I think there will be a little issue in the next two years wherein the quality of content will start dropping at the streaming TV level, which probably works for a larger mass Indian audience.
So, you know, it will not be something that they will complain about, but that shift I am already seeing because everybody is now moving towards hoping that film will help solve that problem a bit. The other place where I think content will be really great to tap into is free content, premium content for free. Like, I feel, you know, if you look at YouTube, we haven't used it enough for premium content.
We have to, like, find a way. Like, TVF has done some great work in that space, using brands and using low cost, you know, low cost of production. They have sustained the last so many years by doing some things on YouTube and then taking the content to a streamer after that, right?
I think that means there's great opportunity there. I feel TVF has mastered the art of making a certain kind of content. But if other content companies and creators like me get resources to tap into that market on YouTube, two things will happen.
One is there's a large audience which is consuming free content all the time. A. B, you know, we get to retain our IP for perpetuity.
And if that business model can somehow find its spot, that will be the biggest counter shift to this. I think this whole supply demand issue.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: So, so bloody interesting what you're saying. Look at MX Player, because I for the last three years I've been writing that, you know, all the growth in video consumption is coming from the free end of the game, whether it's YouTube or DD Free Dish. But look at MX Player.
I mean, Amazon paid reportedly 100 million dollars. It's free. It's premium.
They've just invested in a lot of shows. They've announced 100 shows for this year. And then there's another product coming up, which I'll be writing about, which Dish TV's launched Flix, which is basically any content producer who has original stuff.
It's it's the it's a platform which is between Netflix and YouTube.
Sidharth Jain: Right.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: As a platform, it's not just one OTT. So they already have 100 small medium scale creators there. But you're absolutely right.
You need some business models or some innovations which come in and disrupt what is there right now.
Sidharth Jain: Yes.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: That money can be made.
Sidharth Jain: Absolutely. Money can be made and also they can be then value for the enterprise because of IP ownership. Correct.
Otherwise, there's the value.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: You know, Sridhar, you and I have again discussed this, but I think we are at a different stage in the life of the Indian entertainment business right now. Why is it? Does it look like Hindi cinema seems particularly stuck when it comes to theatrical success?
They're making good films. There is no doubt. I mean, your Twelfth Trail, your Lapatta, they are all Chandu champion.
The good films are getting made. So I don't think the quality. So one and.
Everybody says South, South, but the South is a single screen market, at least one of those states, which is Andhra, two of those states, Telangana are dominated by producers who own the source screens also. It's a price controlled market. It's a different market.
It's a market where OTT has not penetrated as much as it has in Hindi and English. So I think there are textual differences. But given that, given that COVID and OTT broke the habit, why has Hindi seen, you know, even the supply has dried up?
What is your sense of what is the issue here?
Sidharth Jain: I think the answer has been very clear to me since the last decade. And I'll just take a little context of where I'm coming to. If you look at the Hindi film business, right?
Till 2005 ish, before that, almost all the Hindi films are funded by either money lenders. Or it used to come from very, very rich, you know, individuals who are from outside the business, right? Even if I have to see Mughal-e-Azam was funded by who?
Shahpurji Palanjali. Exactly. So I'm just saying from before that, if you look at the 1920s, 30s, the Parsi, the rich Parsis in Bombay, who made money from tea and opium funded and that's when the films, the filmmakers who used to be earlier in Calcutta and Lahore, moved to Bombay in the 20s and 30s.
So if you track the history of filmmaking, it is always relied on outside money, either equity or debt. But that's true. When the corporates came in.
Yeah, but let me tell you, when the corporates came in, when they went started with IPO, Mukhtars, Adlabs, right? When they came in, they came in with a mix of enterprise and backing talent on instinct. So I'm going to use the word instinct.
These were IPO publicly listed companies driven by instinct, because they were driven by filmmakers like either Subhash Ghai or people like Mr. Manmohan Shetty, who relied a lot on instinct and people. They would not look at the Excel sheet, right? That's why they would fund a Munnabhai, it would get made.
They would also make a Tere Bin Laden. They would also make a Love Story 2050 and they would take those bets. That's all.
That's all. Like even I started my career, Mr. Manmohan Shetty invested in my film Marygold. And he knew he may not make money in this film at all.
But he said, we have to encourage these things, right? When the other corporates came in, which are largely the studios and TVA, the Americans, right? That's when the instinct became slowly, slowly started losing its steam, right?
I think after the era of Sameer Nair and Iqta Kapoor, slowly, slowly, instinct became lesser important in the film business. I think even up to like Eros, Kishore Lulla, they were all instinct driven people or star driven, you know, somehow the business was still, okay, you would hear a story, there's an actor, director, let's make it. Scripting and the process of executives hand-holding the creative process was still not there.
It was left to the filmmaker. But in the last 10-12 years, in Bombay, in Hindi, we have, all the private investors were shunned. All money lenders were put on the side because studios started giving us equity money, but it came at a cost of minimise the risk on paper.
What are the names? What is the setup? And last 10 years, whether it's streaming, whether it's film, it is only, it's an Excel sheet, PDF proposal that gets a green light.
It is not the instinct of the maker. Who are you betting on? We are betting on nobody since the last decade, which means that only people who have delivered in the past were getting richer and richer.
And the two examples that you've taken of Twelfth Phil and Lapa the Ladies, what is the net worth of those writers and directors? Crores. But how can, if I will not inculcate talent, fresh talent and give them a place to stay in Bombay, pay their rent, train them, tell them you learn, write, rewrite, write, rewrite and become a pool of talent that we can bet on.
Who will we bet on? Today the problem is what? Who will I bet on?
If you give me 500 crores tomorrow, right, and say make 25 films, who will I bet on? I'm not spending 10 years in developing my Tarantinos. Where are my Vidhu Vinod Chopras?
The young ones who were bet on by NFDC and private producers and a Sethji sitting in Lament Road and saying, go kid, make a film. But in the South, that system remained. It is there till date.
Because they kept the Americans away from the process. Because instinct rules in the South. That's why their content is better with the audience.
Because they are betting on the maker and they know what the audience instinct, they are going with that. There is no data that's driving a film like Pushpa. Data is after.
How many views did Pushpa get on our platform? That data is an afterthought. We are taking stock.
But nobody made the first Pushpa thinking all of that. So our system of corporate system in Hindi, which we were hailing 10 years ago, has become the reason why we are in shambles. And that is why unless outside money does not come in through non-industry players, this will not change.
And unless we develop talent, I have to develop a real writer. I can't tell a machine to write a script for me. I need people who want to take this as a career.
Why would somebody say you become a screenwriter if you're not going to get salary for the first 10 years of your life?
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: You know, it reminds me that maybe there's a call to go back to the studio system in many ways. Have writers on salary, have actors on salary, because that is going to keep costs in check. I don't know if any...
I think YRF does a bit of that.
Sidharth Jain: YRF does that. Madhav does that. Let's hail the guys who do it.
Yeah, I mean, they support their people. I'm saying, let's take the examples of the people who have survived more than 10 years in the film business. These are studios that are run by filmmakers themselves.
They have instinct. YRF, Dharma, Excel, Madhav also because at least Dinesh has made one film as a director. Right.
So, I would put... I'm saying the only... and then even Sajid Nadiatwala was feeling left out.
He also directed a film a few years ago. So, if you see every big studio of repute, which has survived decades, is run by a filmmaker. That's why they're surviving.
If it was run by a non-creative executive from a corporate, it would be shut by now.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: It's a very interesting point.
Sidharth Jain: Because you can't scale up. You can't sustain without that talent.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Okay, two more questions. One is, you know, when you talk about writers and having them and what is... and I think this is something a lot of writers would like to know.
What does writing fetch today as a career in this business?
Sidharth Jain: See, I think there are guidelines by... So, there are guidelines by SWA. But, you know, practically, I think if anybody has written a script...
So, let's take an example of, say, a writer sitting at home. He has written a script. Maybe he's a first-time writer.
For a script, for a first-time writer, I think in the industry they get paid anything between 5 to 20 lakhs, depending on how good or bad the script is. Will it actually get made? You know, I think it ranges between that.
But if you've, like, delivered something that has released and has done well, then you can get even anything between 50 lakhs to a crore for a script. But the journey to reach that milestone is where most people drop out. Because it's a marathon, it's not a 100-metre sprint.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Speaking of money, now one of the things you mentioned is the corporatization. But corporatization also got good money into the business, helped clean up a lot of things. I think a lot of processes got cleaned up in the last 20 years at this business.
So, yeah, sure, it came with its downside. And you can see that in Hollywood also. By the way, are you watching that show on Apple?
Studio.
Sidharth Jain: Yeah, we're all watching it. It's our life playing out on screen.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Exactly. But one thing is very clear that capital in the content-making process, I hate using that word, but in the content, in the film-making, programme-making process, not at the platform end or at the studio end or at the exhibition end, but in the making of stories, you need capital. That's why I love the Aadhaar Dharma deal.
Or I like the fact that Bhavija has gone and done this IPO and raised some money. Why is that such a challenge today? Because balance sheets are clean, the business is largely clean.
What is the issue here? Sure, there are risks, but if you had a portfolio of films, the returns are roughly the same that you'd get in many other parts of this business. Why is it such a challenge?
Sidharth Jain: So see, the TV business has predictability. So let's put that on the side. The streaming business also, I mean, Netflix has proven that there is a way to find that pot of gold.
But the film business, right, is still unpredictable. And I think the film business only works when you have investors like Aadhaar Poonawala or Shapurji Palanji or Manmohan Shetty, where people are not thinking, oh, how do I safeguard my money? They're saying, we can lose this money.
I mean, the reason Jio has been such a great boon for the industry, because from where they come, this is loose change for them, right? Like what they invest in. So they're okay to lose.
So I think the first principle of an investor who wants to invest in the film business, you have to come from a point of, I don't mind losing a lot of money. I mean, I'll give you another example. Manish Pundra, he came from the outside as an individual who said, you know what, here, take four crores, make a film.
Here, take five crores, make a film. He was willing to lose capital to become a production house or a financer of films. And that is the first characteristic that you need in the investment philosophy, that films is not, you don't come here to make money.
You know, that is when the propositions start going haywire, and you start making proposals to minimise risk. In the film business, you know, we actually think of, we don't even think about risk. You know, when we are sitting and talking, you know, I'm telling as creators, when I'm talking to writers and directors, we just don't talk about the story and we get so carried away by that, that we stop thinking about the risk involved.
And that is where, you know, I think that balance has to come in. And an outside investor has to be of such great net worth. That is okay.
So the intent, you know, you can't have the mindset that, you know, I meet investors, I met hundreds of them last 20 years. First, I tell them, I don't want to lose 50% of the capital. No, then please invest in mutual funds, take an SIP or buy gold or buy real estate or buy the office.
Basically, you are doing patronage investing.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: You're saying that you need a patron, not an investor.
Sidharth Jain: It starts with that. I'm saying that's the first intent philosophy. Otherwise, how do you create art?
See, we are creating commerce which meets art. It has to meet somewhere. But it can't be only commerce.
Also, the reason why it works in films, because we have to remind ourselves and everybody that films is a filmmaker's medium. See, films is not anything else. TV and all, I understand.
TV, streaming, YouTube, all is different. But film is always a filmmaker's medium. Right?
There is, you need a Shekhar Kapoor for a Bandit Queen that you have watched. It cannot be made the same way with another filmmaker.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: But you know what, the same filmmakers make the best streaming series. It's only that they don't own the IP or the studio doesn't own. So, they are making very good stuff on streaming.
But it's somehow not working. By the way, one thing which I've missed asking you for my question is where are the bulk of your writers coming from? Are they like the metro?
Because this is one accusation which is hurled at the Hindi business again and again that they are sitting in Bandra Jugoon and writing films. But my sense is they are coming from across. All the people who entered this business, you know, whether it's a Pankaj Tripathi, I'm talking from the talent side, are from outside the cities.
So, are the writers also coming from outside or are they part of the same clique of people?
Sidharth Jain: See, 99% of the writers are from outside Bombay, but they find a way to come to Bombay and try their luck. But I will tell you a very small micro short story about this. The first film that we are announcing soon, which is packaging and releasing soon in the press, is called Belt Tight Cut Throat.
Okay. It's a bizarre title. And I will tell you, I went to this literature festival in Trivandrum a few months ago.
This one young boy, 27-year-old boy approached me, said, Sir, I have been following you on social media. Can I share some of my stories? He is a young boy who writes stories in Malayalam and he's been writing film scripts in Malayalam.
He narrated 3-4 ideas. I liked one. I said, my flight is tomorrow.
Can you give me a short narration of half an hour? Next day, he comes and narrates a story to me. It is one of the most original screenplays I've heard in the last 10 years of my life.
I immediately told him, you know, this is great, but it's too long. It's in Malayalam, but can I make it as a Hindi film? He agreed.
I entered into a deal with him in the next 7 days, paid him the money, taken the script, and now that script has been read by 6-7-8 people. They say, wow, it's so original. This boy has never come to Bombay.
He doesn't live in Bombay. He doesn't speak Hindi. This is, but he's an original talent.
This is what storying does, right? For example, and I'm saying there is talent, but they're not accessible to Bombay. The challenge is he can't come to Bombay and stay.
He doesn't have his father who can pay rent for one year and stay in Lokhandwala. So to do that, we have to get writers on salary. We have to give them a career.
We have to bet on 20, hoping 5 will pop. Now for that, how much can I do as an individual? You need corporates to think like this, but the corporates are not thinking like this.
So a lot of talent is outside the city, which has potential, but is untrained.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: Fantastic. This is such a great example, by the way, Siddharth. I love this example.
Great. Anything on challenges? I think we've discussed many of them, but that's my like.
Sidharth Jain: I think largely the challenge that we have is I think risk capital, truly risk capital has to come in this business and for films because films will create 10 new strong production houses for the next decade because they will own IP, they'll have value, they'll unlock it. They'll go IPO, they'll list here, they'll list there. So risk capital, if that starts flowing in from anywhere in the world, and I'll just say one more thing.
I think it's a great time to raise capital for India, finders from outside the country, because if the money is foreign money coming in to make content, the ministry is not giving subsidy. That's a great thing that people haven't noticed enough. I think we can get up to 20 to 30% subsidy.
So if I were in a financer for a film from say the UK or from Dubai, so my cost to the funder for the project gets like reduced like the UK and Europe has. So taking that, finding risk capital outside the country can completely revive the Hindi film industry and make it really, really strong for the whole next decade. And that is what everybody should go for and help support.
India will survive when they help us risk capital.
Vanita Kohli-Khandekar: So, so agree. I mean, I think at the theatrical end is a whole discussion, which I plan to do on podcast also, which is different. But lovely Siddharth, this was really good.
Thank you so much for talking to me and for your generosity with time, I think I've taken more than the time I asked for. But thank you. Thank you so much.
